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Offline Nooseph Polten

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Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2017, 08:07:54 PM »
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  • DZ, you make many good points, at times, but your replies are becoming more and more riddle-esque.  Most times, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.  You are beginning to replace Wessex as the most mysterious poster.  I would enjoy hearing your opinion.  If you could be less complex; it would do this site good.
    I still think Franciscan Solitary is king of mysteriousness. 
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #46 on: October 21, 2017, 08:12:23 PM »
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  • At least.
    You are going down a dangerous path. Please show me how Pope Pius XII was a manifest heretic? 


    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #47 on: October 21, 2017, 08:26:43 PM »
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  • At least.
    Exhibit A^ This is one of the problems with sedevacantism.  :facepalm:
    ::) Quite an interregnum we're having, isn't it?
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #48 on: October 21, 2017, 08:42:18 PM »
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  • Exhibit A^ This is one of the problems with sedevacantism.  :facepalm:
    ::) Quite an interregnum we're having, isn't it?
    Very, very few people who realize that the Roman See is vacant hold that Pope Pius XII was not a true pope. As a matter of fact, this is only the second or third person I've ever encountered that holds this position. Just because the truth is not to your liking doesn’t make it untrue. 
    So your red herring is just that, a red herring.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #49 on: October 21, 2017, 08:44:48 PM »
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  • You are going down a dangerous path. Please show me how Pope Pius XII was a manifest heretic?
    I will wait for the definition of manifest heretic.

    However, the future Pope Pius XII, as Msgr. Pacelli, was a canon lawyer who helped to change and codify all the Holy Canons, which were written by the Holy Fathers in Ecumenical Councils. These Holy Canons, which had anathemas attached to them, should have never been touched.

    I am referring to the Code of Canon Law of 1917. New Vatican II canon lawyers have rewritten and codified this Code of 1917 in 1983, and are now preparing yet another codification. How many times will these canon laws be changed?

    Do you see how nefarious this is?

    All the Holy Traditions are being attacked by these modernists.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #50 on: October 21, 2017, 08:47:28 PM »
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  • I will wait for the definition of manifest heretic.
    However, the future Pope Pius XII, as Msgr. Pacelli, was a canon lawyer who helped to change and codify all the Holy Canons, which were written by the Holy Fathers in Ecumenical Councils. These Holy Canons, which had anathemas attached to them, should have never been touched.
    Please give an example.....

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #51 on: October 21, 2017, 08:51:01 PM »
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  • Please give an example.....
    Go and read them yourself.

    One of the Holy Canons says that we should not pray with heretics (pagans).

    Yet, JP II prayed with pagans at Assisi. Francis has prayed with those not of the Catholic faith.

    One cannon ball down.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecumenism/noncath.htm
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #52 on: October 21, 2017, 08:59:31 PM »
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  • Go and read them yourself.

    One of the Holy Canons says that we should not pray with heretics (pagans).

    Yet, JP II prayed with pagans at Assisi. Francis has prayed with those not of the Catholic faith.

    One cannon ball down.
    What on Earth does that have to do with Pope Pius XII??


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #53 on: October 21, 2017, 09:15:43 PM »
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  • I am not talking about teaching and infallibility. That is another topic.

    >> I'm glad that you understand that; for many don't seem to.

    In this post, I am limiting the discussion to Papal supremacy and Francis as a manifest obstinate heretic.

    >> Redundant ma'am, for a heretic is obstinate by definition.

    In light of the definition of Papal Supremacy by Vatican I, isn't the Pope now

    >> Now ma'am? Just because a thing is defined at a later date, doesn't mean that it wasn't always so; quite the reverse in these matters, actually.

    considered to be supreme even over an Ecumenical Council and over a council of bishops?  Even if a council of bishops declares Francis to be manifest obstinate heretic, which they have, Francis could deny it, which he has already done.

    >> Ma'am, please note that there is a basic distinction involved between the sin and the crime; I believe that it was correctly alluded to previously. This is one of the reasons why it is ridiculous to hold that popes, as such, are deposed by any save themselves or God. "The pope is judged by none."

    >> The pope is the supreme judge. What this caddywhumpus thinking reflects is an inversion of order. Also, on principle and by extension then, priest could depose bishops/ordinaries, or laity priests. I wish it worked that way in the world, because then we could all just sign a petition and fire the supreme court. Doesn't work that way.


    However, if a heretical Pope,

    >> Ma'am, do yourself a favor, and forget "heretical" pope. It only confuses the issue. A hereticAL pope, could be so inadvertently as the "...AL" even suggests; otherwise he'd just be a heretIC, and so no longer pope. People might think that he's pope, be he no longer is. 

    For example say that Geocentrism were actually an article of faith. People can and have been wrong and confused about the status of various propositions, but a Catholic, for another example, shown that the Blessed Virgin's virginity was, is, and will always be so, will give proper assent. Until that time, innocently holding otherwise, their position is hereticAL. They are not heretics because of they are not (obstinate/STUBBORN/pertinacious etc...)

    >> Conversely, say they're ostensible Protestant converts, they still maintain that she had other natural children in spite of being shown and told, would be a heretic. Remember, these things aren't directly of reason, but by faith, in God revealing; i.e., "Because God said so."


    as a manifest heretic, decides to tamper with all the Ecumenical Councils that have ever taken place serious damage could be done.

    >> I think that you've more than an adequate grasp of the ludicrousness of the situation. Your choice of words is a bit off, and prone to feed bad thinking though. A pope who falls into manifest heresy is deposed "ipso facto", by that very fact. Heretics can neither bind, nor loose, anything of the faith. They are imposters, they may appear to; otherwise the gates of Hell prevail, there would be no ONE faith, because these shenanigans WOULD (note conditional and tense) wreak havoc on the unity of the faith, external and otherwise. There would be no HOLY faith, because Christ is belied. There would be no CATHOLIC faith (there isn't enough room or time to go into universals, theologic or philosophic)

    If a supreme pope

    >> Not to nitpick ma'am, but our representations are our "software". As the Angelic tells us, a small error at the outset, grows over time. "Supreme pope" is, again, redundant.

    can change or void the decisions and canons of all Ecumenical Councils,

    >> Smaller bites ma'am. YOu're making some pretty scary leaps; you're tacitly dropping a passel of distinct categories into a blender, and hitting "frappe".

    >> Enough for now. It's getting a little of the rails.

    ...
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #54 on: October 21, 2017, 09:16:45 PM »
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  • It gets very very frustrating when people act as though they have a clue about Catholic teaching on the papacy when in fact they know very little. It is the common teaching of theologians that a pope ceases to be pope if he is a manifest heretic. It is also the  common teaching that a manifest heretic is not a member of the Church and if he was elected pope his election would not be valid.

    I could give you many proofs of this being taught, but here is just one example. I use this because it is short and concise:
    Thanks for the doc, I appreciate it.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #55 on: October 21, 2017, 09:21:25 PM »
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  • Exhibit A^ This is one of the problems with sedevacantism.  :facepalm:
    ::) Quite an interregnum we're having, isn't it?
    " :facepalm:" ," ::)" and insinuations are weak-sauce.

    Specify.

    Why can't this, for instance, just be unsound reasoning? Why is it specific to Sedevacantism?

    Shall we, for example, dissect your posts and then proclaim "These are the problems with anti-Catholicism"?

    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #56 on: October 21, 2017, 09:29:29 PM »
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  • I will wait for the definition of manifest heretic.

    However, the future Pope Pius XII, as Msgr. Pacelli, was a canon lawyer who helped to change and codify all the Holy Canons, which were written by the Holy Fathers in Ecumenical Councils. These Holy Canons, which had anathemas attached to them, should have never been touched.

    I am referring to the Code of Canon Law of 1917. New Vatican II canon lawyers have rewritten and codified this Code of 1917 in 1983, and are now preparing yet another codification. How many times will these canon laws be changed?

    Do you see how nefarious this is?

    All the Holy Traditions are being attacked by these modernists.
    Ma'am, human law is neither divine nor eternal law. You're juggling too many balls ma'am.

    The very axiom "necessity makes licit" of itself evidences this. We can never murder.
    Under ordinary circumstances, the laity aren't to fondle the Blessed Sacrament.

    However, if there is a danger of greater profanation, then "necessity makes licit"

    This isn't meant to be an excuse to "do our own thing", but merely to illustrate principle.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #57 on: October 21, 2017, 09:32:16 PM »
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  • What on Earth does that have to do with Pope Pius XII??
    Maybe let her take a breath. This thread could give the impression of her being cornered, which makes people emotional/desperate, which makes people stupid.

    And no ma'am, I"m not calling you stupid, I'm calling you human.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #58 on: October 21, 2017, 10:15:15 PM »
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  • What on Earth does that have to do with Pope Pius XII??

    Pius XII as Pacelli worked on the Code of Canon Law in 1917. That involved a lot of changes.

    Then Pius XII permitted Holy Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular during World War II in England, France, and Germany. Since people in Europe got used to hearing the Mass in the vernacular, was it no surprise that this New Mass would be forced on us? Pius XII was no dummy.

    Finally, Pius XII established Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world when he published his encyclical Mystici corporis Christi on 29 June 1943. If the Mass were not broken, why would Pius XII ask all dioceses to establish these diocesan liturgical commissions? What was the purpose of these commission? These commissions ultimately paved the way for the disastrous Vatican II council and the Novus Ordo.

    Yes, I realize that the initial papers for Vatican II were much better than the final drafts. Nevertheless, it was Pius XII who initiated the plans for Vatican II, and it was he who initiated all the changes in the Code of Canon Law of 1917.

    I have read the encyclical Mystici corporis Christi several times. First for my college classes, then in a study group, and finally as a review. I was never impressed by it as it seemed so deceptive.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #59 on: October 22, 2017, 09:07:28 AM »
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  • How very sad for Pope Pius XII.  Our Lady referred to him, Pope.  Yet, after so many times Our Lady asked for his help to consecrate Russia, he was told by Sr. Lucia, Our Lady says you did it with "half measure".   I see Pope Pius XII has validly nominated, but his actions were likened to a politician who is on the fence; leaning both ways.

     

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