Author Topic: I am considering sedevacantism  (Read 8834 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2017, 09:32:16 PM »
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  • What on Earth does that have to do with Pope Pius XII??
    Maybe let her take a breath. This thread could give the impression of her being cornered, which makes people emotional/desperate, which makes people stupid.

    And no ma'am, I"m not calling you stupid, I'm calling you human.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #61 on: October 21, 2017, 10:15:15 PM »
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  • What on Earth does that have to do with Pope Pius XII??

    Pius XII as Pacelli worked on the Code of Canon Law in 1917. That involved a lot of changes.

    Then Pius XII permitted Holy Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular during World War II in England, France, and Germany. Since people in Europe got used to hearing the Mass in the vernacular, was it no surprise that this New Mass would be forced on us? Pius XII was no dummy.

    Finally, Pius XII established Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world when he published his encyclical Mystici corporis Christi on 29 June 1943. If the Mass were not broken, why would Pius XII ask all dioceses to establish these diocesan liturgical commissions? What was the purpose of these commission? These commissions ultimately paved the way for the disastrous Vatican II council and the Novus Ordo.

    Yes, I realize that the initial papers for Vatican II were much better than the final drafts. Nevertheless, it was Pius XII who initiated the plans for Vatican II, and it was he who initiated all the changes in the Code of Canon Law of 1917.

    I have read the encyclical Mystici corporis Christi several times. First for my college classes, then in a study group, and finally as a review. I was never impressed by it as it seemed so deceptive.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline songbird

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #62 on: October 22, 2017, 09:07:28 AM »
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  • How very sad for Pope Pius XII.  Our Lady referred to him, Pope.  Yet, after so many times Our Lady asked for his help to consecrate Russia, he was told by Sr. Lucia, Our Lady says you did it with "half measure".   I see Pope Pius XII has validly nominated, but his actions were likened to a politician who is on the fence; leaning both ways.

    Offline Augustine Linst

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #63 on: October 22, 2017, 10:20:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: happenby on Today at 07:03:39 AM

    On the contrary, news from the Vatican indicates that Francis most likely will impose changes in the Latin Mass to make it comply with the Novus Ordo. There will be calendar changes with the addition of NewChurch NO saints, additional NewChurch readings (OT and NT), NewChurch prefaces taken from the Novus Ordo, etc.  All those attending Latin Masses under the jurisdiction of Francis will be affected with no exceptions allowed except temporary exemptions. If SSPX folds and comes under Francis, then most likely SSPX will be forced to comply with these new regulations. If SSPX does not comply once they have joined forces with the Vatican, then the local ordinaries (bishops) might seize their chapels and schools. And yes, this is a warning to SSPX faithful who have contributed to building funds. All those funds will be taken away.
    This and the links in the same article show the trap you are mentioning M.R.

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #64 on: October 22, 2017, 12:42:28 PM »
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  • Thanks for the doc, I appreciate it.
    You are most welcome!


    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #65 on: October 22, 2017, 01:46:10 PM »
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  • Pius XII as Pacelli worked on the Code of Canon Law in 1917. That involved a lot of changes.

    It was ordered by St. Pius X and was necessary to codify the code. All of the laws in the 1917 code are good and holy.

    Then Pius XII permitted Holy Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular during World War II in England, France, and Germany. Since people in Europe got used to hearing the Mass in the vernacular, was it no surprise that this New Mass would be forced on us? Pius XII was no dummy.

    I have heard this accusation before, however please cite proof. Also, even if it were true, it is not contrary to any article of faith.

    Finally, Pius XII established Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world when he published his encyclical Mystici corporis Christi on 29 June 1943. If the Mass were not broken, why would Pius XII ask all dioceses to establish these diocesan liturgical commissions? What was the purpose of these commission? These commissions ultimately paved the way for the disastrous Vatican II council and the Novus Ordo.

    There have always been changes and improvements in the liturgy throughout the history of the Church. This can in no way whatsoever be used to condemn Pope Pius XII.

    Yes, I realize that the initial papers for Vatican II were much better than the final drafts. Nevertheless, it was Pius XII who initiated the plans for Vatican II, and it was he who initiated all the changes in the Code of Canon Law of 1917.

    Even if it were true that VII was planned during the reign of Pius XII, it proves absolutely nothing.

    I have read the encyclical Mystici corporis Christi several times. First for my college classes, then in a study group, and finally as a review. I was never impressed by it as it seemed so deceptive.

    In my opinion it was a great encyclical that is so extremely important today. If you want to make the argument that Pius XII was imprudent, was a weak leader, or didn’t do enough to rid the Church of modernists, yes you can make that argument (I wouldn’t nessessarly agree with it), however to claim that he wasn’t a true pope is just plain irresponsible, foolish, and ignorant.



    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #66 on: October 22, 2017, 01:51:42 PM »
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  • The
    I don't that she's an adequate grounding in basics here, such as those between "accident" and "substance".

    "First things first".

    Pretty solid post though; I'm noticing a very "Home-aloney/Tricky Dick Ibranyi" trend among trads(?) nowadays.

    It certainly isn't waning.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #67 on: October 22, 2017, 02:38:09 PM »
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  • Maria Regina subconsciously perhaps you think about home alone because you haven't found a priest that agrees with you about PiusXII.

    Galatians 1; 8
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #68 on: October 22, 2017, 03:19:08 PM »
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  • Maria Regina subconsciously perhaps you think about home alone because you haven't found a priest that agrees with you about PiusXII.
    Oh, I have, but it is a great distance to travel to see him in person (12 hours or more) as taking a plane is not an option. We chat over the phone and that helps. He said that there are others who disagree with Pius XII, but many of those priests are elderly, and likewise cannot travel.

    The publication of Hitler's Pope opened my eyes and that of my priest, and so did other publications. Pius XII made a lot of serious mistakes and was not consistent. Definitely he was pushed into a corner and was threatened by Hitler, the Freemasons, and others into taking certain actions which had horrible consequences. However, some of his appointments and some of those he consecrated to bishop should never have taken place as he put into place those cardinals (1) those who would elect the anti-Pope John XXIII; (2) those who would betray the Catholic Church at Vatican II; and (3) those who would promote the Novus Ordo and all the sacramental changes.
    Lord have mercy.

    Online Neil Obstat

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #69 on: October 23, 2017, 01:50:48 PM »
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  • Oh, I have, but it is a great distance to travel to see him in person (12 hours or more) as taking a plane is not an option. We chat over the phone and that helps. He said that there are others who disagree with Pius XII, but many of those priests are elderly, and likewise cannot travel.

    The publication of Hitler's Pope opened my eyes and that of my priest, and so did other publications. Pius XII made a lot of serious mistakes and was not consistent. Definitely he was pushed into a corner and was threatened by Hitler, the Freemasons, and others into taking certain actions which had horrible consequences. However, some of his appointments and some of those he consecrated to bishop should never have taken place as he put into place those cardinals (1) those who would elect the anti-Pope John XXIII; (2) those who would betray the Catholic Church at Vatican II; and (3) those who would promote the Novus Ordo and all the sacramental changes.
    .
    I find your denouncement of Pope Pius XII interesting. I don't agree with your conclusions, however.
    .
    If Pius XII was not really a pope then his solemn definition of Our Lady's Assumption in 1950 was allowed by God to take place even though it would have been a deception for the whole world. All the saints canonized by Pius XII would have been for the deception of the world and some or even all of them were not really saints at all. This would include the canonizations of not only Pope St. Pius X, for example, but also St. Catherine Laboure, St. Gemma Galgani, St. Louis Grignion de Montfort, St. Maria Goretti and St. Anthony Mary Claret, among many others. 
    .
    However, I find it interesting what you have done by carrying the criticism of the many shortcomings of Pius XII to the apparently logical extreme of condemning his whole pontificate (against all reason, it seems to me) because this is something that the CMRI fails to do. You are doing what I should expect of the CMRI, since they condemn John XXIII and all his successors on the same grounds, but they refuse to carry that same denouncement to the papacy of Pius XII.
    .
    In fact, when questioned about these failures of Pius XII, CMRI priests get visibly upset. They don't like such questions. They act like these are personal insults or something like that.
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    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #70 on: October 23, 2017, 02:14:05 PM »
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  • Very, very few people who realize that the Roman See is vacant hold that Pope Pius XII was not a true pope. As a matter of fact, this is only the second or third person I've ever encountered that holds this position. Just because the truth is not to your liking doesn’t make it untrue.
    So your red herring is just that, a red herring.
    My "red herring" is this:
    It is a very slippery slope when one uses their own private judgement to determine whether or not a pope is a true pope. When a catholic goes around basing the validity of a papal election(an act administration) on a debated claim(that a heretic "ipso facto" loses his office), using his own private judgement to decide whether it meets the criteria, ridiculous claims like these happen. I wonder if the poster I was referring to holds St. Pius X as an anti-pope for changing the breviary(?). Using the "ipso facto" argument and Cum Ex to determine who is a pope would mean that numerous true popes in Catholic history were actually anti-popes. Do you see the absurdity in this way of thinking?
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ


    Online Neil Obstat

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #71 on: October 23, 2017, 02:24:37 PM »
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  • Pius XII as Pacelli worked on the Code of Canon Law in 1917. That involved a lot of changes.

    Then Pius XII permitted Holy Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular during World War II in England, France, and Germany. Since people in Europe got used to hearing the Mass in the vernacular, was it no surprise that this New Mass would be forced on us? Pius XII was no dummy.
    .
    Prior to the first Code of Canon Law (1917) there had never been any such Code. So there had been nothing to "change."
    .
    The enormity and devastation of WWI had profoundly affected then Bishop Eugenio Pacelli, which is evident from the fact that he was a close associate of Benedict XV and of Pius XI, whose writings are readily available to read. When Pius XII first came to office Europe was obviously on the verge of another great war, and Pius XII was right in the middle of it. He must have been terrified. It's not impossible to see that his allowing the Mass to be vernacularized in some places had been an act of desperation. Keeping the Mass in Latin didn't help avoid WWI, after all. Why would it help avoid WWII? 
    .
    Quote
    Finally, Pius XII established Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world when he published his encyclical Mystici corporis Christi on 29 June 1943. If the Mass were not broken, why would Pius XII ask all dioceses to establish these diocesan liturgical commissions? What was the purpose of these commission? These commissions ultimately paved the way for the disastrous Vatican II council and the Novus Ordo.

    Yes, I realize that the initial papers for Vatican II were much better than the final drafts. Nevertheless, it was Pius XII who initiated the plans for Vatican II, and it was he who initiated all the changes in the Code of Canon Law of 1917.

    I have read the encyclical Mystici corporis Christi several times. First for my college classes, then in a study group, and finally as a review. I was never impressed by it as it seemed so deceptive.
    .
    When Pius XII set up the liturgical commissions he was trying something new in hopes of finding a solution to the numerous problems the world was facing, and he no doubt had problematic advisers. The solution he was groping for could have easily been achieved by making the Collegial Consecration of Russia together with all the bishops of the world. For whatever reason, he apparently listened to his advisers instead of to the actual request of Our Lady. This is very mysterious. 
    .
    The language of Mystici Corporis Christi was beginning to resemble that which was used throughout Vat.II. While the things that he said in the encyclical are very good things, the WAY he said them was a bit different, and in retrospect could have been better. Also, there were some issues that Pius XII fell short of addressing at the time which he did for whatever reasons, but later they would become opportunities for the Church's enemies to make progress against the Church. It seems to me that he was trying to make accommodation to the modern world, expecting that would help encourage world peace. He lent his ear also to impostors, perhaps by mistake, and I think he had good intentions but was under enormous pressure to modernize things. Being Pope in those days was no walk in the park.
    .
    If it was difficult to be Pope in those days, imagine how difficult it would be TODAY. Blessed Jacinta Marto had it right when she advocated prayer and sacrifice for the Holy Father.
    .
    Perhaps the worst effect of sedevacantism is that it deprives the current pope from prayers of Catholics. That many more Masses are said without mention of prayers for the Holy Father (because of the "una cum" dissension).
    .
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #72 on: October 23, 2017, 02:47:34 PM »
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  • .
    Prior to the first Code of Canon Law (1917) there had never been any such Code. So there had been nothing to "change."

    Prior to the first Code of Canon Law (1917) there were the Ancient Canons which had anathemas on them. These Holy Canons were penned by Ecumenical Councils and considered to be infallible. Thus, changing them carried great risk of heresy and/or certainly opened the door for heresy.

    These Holy Canons should have never been changed, but changed they were to accommodate the modernists and Freemasons who were already in the Vatican.

    .
    The enormity and devastation of WWI had profoundly affected then Bishop Eugenio Pacelli, which is evident from the fact that he was a close associate of Benedict XV and of Pius XI, whose writings are readily available to read. When Pius XII first came to office Europe was obviously on the verge of another great war, and Pius XII was right in the middle of it. He must have been terrified. It's not impossible to see that his allowing the Mass to be vernacularized in some places had been an act of desperation. Keeping the Mass in Latin didn't help avoid WWI, after all. Why would it help avoid WWII?

    This does not follow at all.

    If you believe that the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) can be changed into the vernacular thereby inadvertently introducing changes through errors of translation, then yes, the vernacularization of the TLM would be a danger. And if you believe that the TLM imparts grace, then denying the use of the TLM would cut off graces. WWII was far worse than WWI.

    ..
    When Pius XII set up the liturgical commissions he was trying something new in hopes of finding a solution to the numerous problems the world was facing, and he no doubt had problematic advisers. The solution he was groping for could have easily been achieved by making the Collegial Consecration of Russia together with all the bishops of the world. For whatever reason, he apparently listened to his advisers instead of to the actual request of Our Lady. This is very mysterious.

    It sounds like you are grasping at straws here.  There was no need for these liturgical commissions. Besides, Pius XII had opened Pandora's box by letting certain countries experiment liturgically, changing not only the TLM into the vernacular, but introducing other liturgical novelties and practices such as that done by the infamous Jesuit, Teillard de Chardin. All Pius XII needed to do was stop these illicit liturgical practices, but he set up liturgical commissions instead -- liturgical commissions that would speed the progress of the modernists and Freemasons in the church who desired even more innovations, so that the sacredness of the Mass would be destroyed, as it has been.

    .
    The language of Mystici Corporis Christi was beginning to resemble that which was used throughout Vat.II. While the things that he said in the encyclical are very good things, the WAY he said them was a bit different, and in retrospect could have been better. Also, there were some issues that Pius XII fell short of addressing at the time which he did for whatever reasons, but later they would become opportunities for the Church's enemies to make progress against the Church. It seems to me that he was trying to make accommodation to the modern world, expecting that would help encourage world peace. He lent his ear also to impostors, perhaps by mistake, and I think he had good intentions but was under enormous pressure to modernize things. Being Pope in those days was no walk in the park.

    Pius XII was a modernist who spoke the language of modernists.
    .
    If it was difficult to be Pope in those days, imagine how difficult it would be TODAY. Blessed Jacinta Marto had it right when she advocated prayer and sacrifice for the Holy Father.
    .
    Perhaps the worst effect of sedevacantism is that it deprives the current pope from prayers of Catholics. That many more Masses are said without mention of prayers for the Holy Father (because of the "una cum" dissension).

    On the contrary, every time Francis opens his mouth, more people pray for Francis, that he will be converted.  How can those who love Christ not pray for those who oppose Christ for Christ our God told us to pray for our enemies, and unfortunately, Francis has become our enemy.

    Lord have mercy.

    Online Neil Obstat

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #73 on: October 23, 2017, 03:31:35 PM »
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  • Quote
    Pius XII was a modernist who spoke the language of modernists.
    .
    Why would a Modernist canonize as a saint his own predecessor who defined and condemned Modernism?
    .
    You're arguing against yourself -- you don't need any help.
    .
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #74 on: October 23, 2017, 03:48:15 PM »
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  • Perhaps the worst effect of sedevacantism is that it deprives the current pope from prayers of Catholics. That many more Masses are said without mention of prayers for the Holy Father (because of the "una cum" dissension).
    Thus spaketh "Nil Obstat"
    Credibility zero. 
    "Lord, have mercy".

     

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