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Offline Maria Regina

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Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2017, 03:41:38 PM »
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  • This is exactly what I was going to write to Ma'am you, Maria Regina.
    DZ stated, "A home aloner would be someone who, for example,  choses to not receive sacraments or otherwise participate in what they hold is invalid and/or illicit."

    We have chosen not to receive the sacraments in the Novus Ordo because we believe that they are not only invalid and illicit, but also downright heretical. The nearby parishes have occasionally sung, "Her name is Jesus" and other songs that seem to support the pagan position where the earth is honored as mother-God, or the Neo-Arian belief that Christ became God, but was not always God. It is absolute weirdness. People have to be sleep-deprived and/or doped on drugs not to see the blatant heresy here.

    The non-NO parishes, including the CMRI, are too far for us to travel.  Even being offered a ride does not work out due to health concerns. Thus, we are at the mercy of priests who have limited time in their busy schedules.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #31 on: October 21, 2017, 04:23:43 PM »
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  • DZ stated, "A home aloner would be someone who, for example,  choses to not receive sacraments or otherwise participate in what they hold is invalid and/or illicit."

    We have chosen not to receive the sacraments in the Novus Ordo because we believe that they are not only invalid and illicit, but also downright heretical. The nearby parishes have occasionally sung, "Her name is Jesus" and other songs that seem to support the pagan position where the earth is honored as mother-God, or the Neo-Arian belief that Christ became God, but was not always God. It is absolute weirdness. People have to be sleep-deprived and/or doped on drugs not to see the blatant heresy here.

    The non-NO parishes, including the CMRI, are too far for us to travel.  Even being offered a ride does not work out due to health concerns. Thus, we are at the mercy of priests who have limited time in their busy schedules.
    Ma'am, a home aloner doesn't believe that there is anyone who can licitly administer the sacraments, typically because of problems with/absence of jurisdiction, esp. jurisdictional bishops.

    You admit, at least tacitly, that there is some kind of jurisdiction, and that the sacraments may be licitly administered and received, at least in principle.
    "Home aloners" say that you shouldn't receive most sacraments at all because they are illicitly administered.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #32 on: October 21, 2017, 04:38:48 PM »
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  • Ma'am, a home aloner doesn't believe that there is anyone who can licitly administer the sacraments, typically because of problems with/absence of jurisdiction, esp. jurisdictional bishops.

    You admit, at least tacitly, that there is some kind of jurisdiction, and that the sacraments may be licitly administered and received, at least in principle.
    "Home aloners" say that you shouldn't receive most sacraments at all because they are illicitly administered.
    Okay, thanks for explaining this.
    I was taking a more literal interpretation, not one so theologically expressed.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #33 on: October 21, 2017, 04:54:17 PM »
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  • While it is true Francis is out of his Catholic mind, it is also ridiculous to pretend he isn't Pope. Sedevacantists are like transgender ppl. They want the rest of us to pretend things aren't what they are. Francis sits in the seat, possess the accoutrements, holds the power, has visible recognition, etc. Saying he's a heretic and not the Pope accomplishes nothing. Sedevacantism is nothing but a bunch of finger-pointing. It's a ruse they use in order to shed the responsibility for the crisis in the church we all share. Like Christ, while working out our road to heaven, WE must maintain truth, resist error, suffer and die. Keep the Faith! Francis would have no authority over us unless it were given him from above. Remember, you never have to do what's wrong or obey a false teaching. Francis has never asked you to do anything, so carry on fully Catholic.
    :applause: :applause:
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #34 on: October 21, 2017, 05:16:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: happenby on Today at 07:03:39 AM

    Quote
    While it is true Francis is out of his Catholic mind, it is also ridiculous to pretend he isn't Pope. Sedevacantists are like transgender ppl. They want the rest of us to pretend things aren't what they are. Francis sits in the seat, possess the accoutrements, holds the power, has visible recognition, etc. Saying he's a heretic and not the Pope accomplishes nothing. Sedevacantism is nothing but a bunch of finger-pointing. It's a ruse they use in order to shed the responsibility for the crisis in the church we all share. Like Christ, while working out our road to heaven, WE must maintain truth, resist error, suffer and die. Keep the Faith! Francis would have no authority over us unless it were given him from above. Remember, you never have to do what's wrong or obey a false teaching. Francis has never asked you to do anything, so carry on fully Catholic.

    On the contrary, news from the Vatican indicates that Francis most likely will impose changes in the Latin Mass to make it comply with the Novus Ordo. There will be calendar changes with the addition of NewChurch NO saints, additional NewChurch readings (OT and NT), NewChurch prefaces taken from the Novus Ordo, etc.  All those attending Latin Masses under the jurisdiction of Francis will be affected with no exceptions allowed except temporary exemptions. If SSPX folds and comes under Francis, then most likely SSPX will be forced to comply with these new regulations. If SSPX does not comply once they have joined forces with the Vatican, then the local ordinaries (bishops) might seize their chapels and schools. And yes, this is a warning to SSPX faithful who have contributed to building funds. All those funds will be taken away.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #35 on: October 21, 2017, 05:35:37 PM »
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  • Okay, thanks for explaining this.
    I was taking a more literal interpretation, not one so theologically expressed.
    "... theologically..."

    How generous, ty ma'am.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #36 on: October 21, 2017, 05:38:46 PM »
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  • So, now that LoT is scarce, and so not here to compare us to bum-boys, Masons and pedophiles, now we have the likes of crappinhigh to compare us to Masons and "Bruised Gender".

    Super.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #37 on: October 21, 2017, 05:50:27 PM »
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  • It gets very very frustrating when people act as though they have a clue about Catholic teaching on the papacy when in fact they know very little. It is the common teaching of theologians that a pope ceases to be pope if he is a manifest heretic. It is also the  common teaching that a manifest heretic is not a member of the Church and if he was elected pope his election would not be valid.

    I could give you many proofs of this being taught, but here is just one example. I use this because it is short and concise:



    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #38 on: October 21, 2017, 05:59:48 PM »
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  • So, now that LoT is scarce, and so not here to compare us to bum-boys, Masons and pedophiles, now we have the likes of crappinhigh to compare us to Masons and "Bruised Gender".

    Super.
    Who is LoT?
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #39 on: October 21, 2017, 06:09:50 PM »
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  • It gets very very frustrating when people act as though they have a clue about Catholic teaching on the papacy when in fact they know very little. It is the common teaching of theologians that a pope ceases to be pope if he is a manifest heretic. It is also the  common teaching that a manifest heretic is not a member of the Church and if he was elected pope his election would not be valid.

    I could give you many proofs of this being taught, but here is just one example. I use this because it is short and concise:
    Thanks.

    There is this recent pernicious opinion being expressed by Opus Dei, by certain members of CI, and by other pro-Francis groups that even if the Pope expresses heresy openly, which Francis has done, that he remains Pope until a council declares him a heretic. Of course, isn't it Catholic teaching that the Pope is above a Council with the teaching of Papal Supremacy? Thus, the Pope could void whatever a council declares, and we would be back at the start.

    This opinion that a heretical pope remains a pope seems diabolic.

    What can we do with this obtuse and wicked Vatican bureaucracy? It seems like the Vatican is convinced that the Pope can remain an obstinate heretic and still rule as Pope.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #41 on: October 21, 2017, 06:40:38 PM »
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  • Thanks.

    There is this recent pernicious opinion being expressed by Opus Dei, by certain members of CI, and by other pro-Francis groups that even if the Pope expresses heresy openly, which Francis has done, that he remains Pope until a council declares him a heretic. Of course, isn't it Catholic teaching that the Pope is above a Council with the teaching of Papal Supremacy? Thus, the Pope could void whatever a council declares, and we would be back at the start.

    This opinion that a heretical pope remains a pope seems diabolic.

    What can we do with this obtuse and wicked Vatican bureaucracy? It seems like the Vatican is convinced that the Pope can remain an obstinate heretic and still rule as Pope.
    I hear you ma'am, however it mitigates confusion to maintain the distinction "heretical", "heresy" and "heretic".

    The most key, bottom line point is to note that, canonically speaking, the presumption of innocence in these types of cases does not apply, and at the same time many tend to forget the key point of pertinacity.

    Popes can be wrong, and they can even inadvertently "be" heretical.

    What they absolutely cannot be, as was written previously, is a manifest heretic; it takes pertinacity to be such.

    This is likely the point when someone chimes in about infallibility, which remains irrelevant no matter how much some would have us fixate upon it.

    "He didn't teach anything!"

    He doesn't have to "teach" anything, formally or otherwise, to be a manifest heretic. He just has to obstinately doubt or deny an article of faith.

    Anyone can look up the definition, and they can see that "teaching", "infallibility" etc. aren't mentioned.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #42 on: October 21, 2017, 07:55:17 PM »
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  • I hear you ma'am, however it mitigates confusion to maintain the distinction "heretical", "heresy" and "heretic".

    The most key, bottom line point is to note that, canonically speaking, the presumption of innocence in these types of cases does not apply, and at the same time many tend to forget the key point of pertinacity.

    Popes can be wrong, and they can even inadvertently "be" heretical.

    What they absolutely cannot be, as was written previously, is a manifest heretic; it takes pertinacity to be such.

    This is likely the point when someone chimes in about infallibility, which remains irrelevant no matter how much some would have us fixate upon it.

    "He didn't teach anything!"

    He doesn't have to "teach" anything, formally or otherwise, to be a manifest heretic. He just has to obstinately doubt or deny an article of faith.

    Anyone can look up the definition, and they can see that "teaching", "infallibility" etc. aren't mentioned.

    I am not talking about teaching and infallibility. That is another topic.

    In this post, I am limiting the discussion to Papal supremacy and Francis as a manifest obstinate heretic.

    In light of the definition of Papal Supremacy by Vatican I, isn't the Pope now considered to be supreme even over an Ecumenical Council and over a council of bishops?  Even if a council of bishops declares Francis to be manifest obstinate heretic, which they have, Francis could deny it, which he has already done.

    However, if a heretical Pope, as a manifest heretic, decides to tamper with all the Ecumenical Councils that have ever taken place serious damage could be done.

    If a supreme pope can change or void the decisions and canons of all Ecumenical Councils, perhaps that is why Pope Pius XII as Msgr. Pacilli compiled and codified the Code of Canon Law of 1917, just because he could under the authority of Pope Benedict XV, who promulgated this Code on 27 May 1917.

    Realize all the damage done in the name of Vatican II:
    1. The Latin Mass was essentially destroyed and replaced by the heretical Novus Ordo,
    2. The Liturgical books were all perverted, including all the various rites of the sacramentals.
    3. The altar was replaced by a table.
    4. The sacred chant was replaced by horrible modern music.
    5. The beautiful architectural structures of cathedrals and churches was replaced by the profane.
    6. Etc.

    Now consider what damage a Pope who is a manifest heretic can create if he were to change all the church canons. Note that it has already started. These changes in the Holy Ancient canons started before 1917 under the direction of Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who served as a canon lawyer. And it continues today because the revised unholy Code of Canon Law of 1983 is now considered woefully out of date. Therefore, these canons are now being changed once again. What will Francis do to these canons?

    Okay, since you have more theological training that I do, and have more recently studied the matter, please theologically define the following terms. I do not have a theological dictionary at hand, but perhaps you do. Websters would not be appropriate in this case.

    Heretical

    Heresy

    Manifest Heretic

    Pertinacity
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #43 on: October 21, 2017, 07:59:30 PM »
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  • Right now, after extensive reading and research, I have come to the conclusion that all the popes who planned for, participated in, or defended the Documents of Vatican II, including Pius XII who set up Diocesan Liturgical Commissions and who allowed the vernacular in the Mass during World War II, were all anti-Popes, 
    So you say we haven't had a pope since 1939? 
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #44 on: October 21, 2017, 08:01:42 PM »
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  • So you say we haven't had a pope since 1939?
    At least.
    Lord have mercy.

     

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