Author Topic: Hypothetical question for Sedes (Read 1367 times)

josefamenendez · « **on:** January 29, 2017, 09:32:32 AM »

I'm not trying to start a poop-storm; I'm relatively new here at CI and I just need to know. If this topic has been addressed already, Matthew, please advise and delete this thread.

Hypothetical Question:

If the "destroyer" Pope Francis is thrown off his horse by God, has a great spiritual epiphany or some other miracle that would make him do a 180 and decided to properly consecrate Russia as our Lord and Lady specifically instructed; would it be a valid consecration or just some words imparted by an imposter? I guess the proof would be in the pudding, but would you accept the pudding?

In your opinion, is there any way to get a valid Pope before a complete and utter destruction of Rome as it currently exists? What do you (we) pray for in this regard?

Do you think Fatima is just a private revelation and shouldn't be considered an unquestionable factor in this crisis? If yes, what about the 70,000 witnesses and public affirmation of said event?

This is NOT a challenge...I just need to know.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #1 on:** January 29, 2017, 10:23:39 AM »

Just Keep the Faith, and you will save your soul.

If keeping the faith while believing the Pope can be a non-Catholic that is news to me, but God will be your judge, not I.

Don't worry so much about Russia just Trust that God knows what He is doing and never try to tell God how to work out this crisis. That is a no, no!

Remember the Papacy will never fail us, the office will always be there, Jesus Christ has always been the head of His Church. Just as Jesus Christ has risen from the dead so it will be with the Church, look ahead to the days when the Church will rise again. The True Church can not teach error, a True Pope can not become an enemy of Christ. The Pope is the solution, not the problem as I understand from your OP.

Mario Derksen in the last issue of "The Four Marks" explains the Great Apostasy is an apostasy from the Church and the Vicar of Christ, not of the Church or the Vicar of Christ. The shepherd is struck; he is not doing the striking! Pope Pius IX, we see that he describes the apostasy as consisting precisely in a failure to adhere to the Supreme Pontiff and his Magisterium; and so he proposes as the remedy, or as a preventative measure ever greater fidelity to the Holy See, not resistance against it: Maria Derksen further explains ... "This is how we prevent or escape the Great Apostasy: by ensuring we adhere ever more firmly to the Holy See, not by resisting it."

Incredulous · « **Reply #2 on:** January 29, 2017, 11:55:36 AM »

Of course, God could convert Francis, and even make him a canonically elected Pope.

But why would he do it?

I like Sister Lucia's advise to Father Fuentes in her last public interview of 1957.

Excerpt
“Father, we should not wait for a call to the world from Rome on the part of the Holy Father to do penance. Nor should we wait for a call for penance to come from the Bishops in our Dioceses, nor from our Religious Congregations. No, Our Lord has often used these means, and the world has not paid heed. So, now each one of us must begin to reform himself spiritually. Each one has to save not only his own soul, but also all the souls that God has placed on his pathway.

Knowing what she did, she by-passed the Pope and appealed to the lay Faithful.

nctradcath · « **Reply #3 on:** January 29, 2017, 12:37:36 PM »

Sister Lucy emphasized the daily rosary, faithful fulfillment of duties in state of life, and consecration to Our Ladies Sorrowfful and Immaculate heart by living the brown scapular consecration. She also called for the five first Saturday reparation and daily penance with little sacrifices. We all must do the above to the best of our ability and ask for the graces to faithfully do it all.

Recusant Sede · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2017, 07:24:09 AM »

Quote from: josefamenendez

I'm not trying to start a poop-storm; I'm relatively new here at CI and I just need to know. If this topic has been addressed already, Matthew, please advise and delete this thread.

Hypothetical Question:

If the "destroyer" Pope Francis is thrown off his horse by God, has a great spiritual epiphany or some other miracle that would make him do a 180 and decided to properly consecrate Russia as our Lord and Lady specifically instructed; would it be a valid consecration or just some words imparted by an imposter? I guess the proof would be in the pudding, but would you accept the pudding?

In your opinion, is there any way to get a valid Pope before a complete and utter destruction of Rome as it currently exists? What do you (we) pray for in this regard?

Do you think Fatima is just a private revelation and shouldn't be considered an unquestionable factor in this crisis? If yes, what about the 70,000 witnesses and public affirmation of said event?

This is NOT a challenge...I just need to know.

Let me just deal with the first part of your question. If Mr. Bergoglio were to have a complete conversion and by this I mean 100%. He would have to explicitly reject all of the errors of Vatican II, ecuмenism, religious liberty, the NO mass, etc. He would then have to be conditionally ordained and consecrated and also demand that the clergy that are deemed to profess the true faith be conditionally ordained and consecrated. All of the modernist clergy would have to be physically removed from the Church's buildings and be denounced if they do not profess the true faith.

There may be other issues that need to be looked into and resolved, but if this did happen I would accept him as true pope on the premise of acclamation. He would be peacefully accepted as a true pope by the vast majority of those who profess the true faith.

God could do this? Yes, but I'm not convinced that this is how he will resolve the crisis.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2017, 09:39:44 AM »

Quote from: josefamenendez

If the "destroyer" Pope Francis is thrown off his horse by God, has a great spiritual epiphany or some other miracle that would make him do a 180 and decided to properly consecrate Russia as our Lord and Lady specifically instructed; would it be a valid consecration or just some words imparted by an imposter?

I have no idea. The consecration of countries is not a sacrament and it isn't something that theologians, to my knowledge, theologize about. Not much anyways. We all assume we know what it means (to consecrate Russia) but I'd not be able to tell a valid one apart from an invalid one.

Quote

I guess the proof would be in the pudding, but would you accept the pudding?

Let's wait and see what it tastes like.

Quote

In your opinion, is there any way to get a valid Pope before a complete and utter destruction of Rome as it currently exists? What do you (we) pray for in this regard?

Pray for the conversion of sinners and for the freedom and exaltation of Holy Mother Church.

Quote

Do you think Fatima is just a private revelation and shouldn't be considered an unquestionable factor in this crisis? If yes, what about the 70,000 witnesses and public affirmation of said event?

A private revelation is simply something which is not considered part of divine public revelation, so yes, Fatima (and every other apparition and every other prophecy) is "just" private revelation.

Most sedevacantists believe that the apparition occurred and that it will play a major role in the crisis (as do I). Believing so is not inconsistent with recognizing that it is a private revelation, which simply means that a "belief" in Fatima is not compulsory the way that it is compulsory to believe in the Holy Trinity or the Incarnation.

AMDGJMJ · « **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2017, 09:58:45 AM »

Quote from: josefamenendez

I'm not trying to start a poop-storm; I'm relatively new here at CI and I just need to know. If this topic has been addressed already, Matthew, please advise and delete this thread.

Hypothetical Question:

If the "destroyer" Pope Francis is thrown off his horse by God, has a great spiritual epiphany or some other miracle that would make him do a 180 and decided to properly consecrate Russia as our Lord and Lady specifically instructed; would it be a valid consecration or just some words imparted by an imposter? I guess the proof would be in the pudding, but would you accept the pudding?

In your opinion, is there any way to get a valid Pope before a complete and utter destruction of Rome as it currently exists? What do you (we) pray for in this regard?

Do you think Fatima is just a private revelation and shouldn't be considered an unquestionable factor in this crisis? If yes, what about the 70,000 witnesses and public affirmation of said event?

This is NOT a challenge...I just need to know.

Welcome to the forum,Josefamenendez!

I daily pray for the Restoration of the Catholic Church and God to give us a good pope, and encourage those I know to do the same...

I think that we spent as much time praying as we do trying to figure out the solution; God might just resolve everything for us. :-)

I like to compare our situation with that of the Crucifixion...

If the apostles had known how Our Lord's passion and death would be remedied, they never would have abandoned Him. Yet, not knowing these things, Our Blessed Mother and Saint John remained at the foot of the Cross.

In a similar way... We might not be able to give answers as to how God will remedy the situation in the Church. Yet, we know that until He fixes things, we must stay faithful and preserver in the Faith.

God willing, the Restoration will take place sooner rather than later...

Viva Cristo Rey!

josefamenendez · « **Reply #7 on:** January 30, 2017, 11:03:39 AM »

Thank- you everybody for your replies. There is a lot to consider.
My personality type is one that has difficulty taking things at face value. Maybe that is a lack of Faith- or maybe it is a search for Truth. Depends on what side of the coin faces up after the flip.
I just want to make sure that I recognize the true path to Restoration when I see it, but I guess that's why Our Lord said even the elect would be deceived if the days weren't shortened. I may be asking too much. We are impacted by the diabolical disorientation.
I do pray the Rosary (and more) and she said she would keep me on the path or bring me back if I fall off.
I was just trying to figure out how the R and R ( of where I am) and the Sede position view the present circuмstances in a little more detail and how the perceived solutions may shake out.
I guess the simple answer, like Naaman is the most difficult to accept. I must keep praying!

Arvinger · « **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2017, 11:59:08 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Don't worry so much about Russia just Trust that God knows what He is doing and never try to tell God how to work out this crisis. That is a no, no!

This is kind of response which really disturbs me. The Mother of God comes to Earth and says that we must do so and so, and if we don't there will be consequences. So, is it something compulsory to do, or merely something optional? If it is optional, why are we warned that there will be tragic consequences, including annihilation of nations? No, it is not optional - Consecration of Russia is something that must be done and it is of utmost importance to fight towards that goal.

I have a question to all ''don't worry, just trust God's plan, and Fatima is a private revelation so it's not binding anyway" crowd. If Fatima is optional and not binding in any way, what if everyone in 1917, including Fatima children, dismissed it? After all, following your reasoning that it was just a private revelation, nobody - including Sister Lucia and subsequent Popes - had any obligation to believe it or to do anything about it. Everybody could just dismiss it saying ''private revelation, I don't believe it'' - theoretically, according to your reasoning, they would be within their rights to do so. How would that not be a rejection of a clear command and warning from Heaven?

I think that some sedevacantists push the ''private revelation, not binding'' narrative simply because they cannot square Fatima with sedevacantism. Also, as a sede you have to reject Akita apparitions, which say about the Holy Father, cardinals and bishops (for a sedevacantist there is neither a Holy Father nor cardinals now).

MyrnaM · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2017, 12:31:00 PM »

Arvinger, not sure what flavor of sedevacantist you are familiar with however I will assure you that CMRI, (my church) each year has what they call a FATIMA CONFERENCE. I know of no one who dismisses the message of Fatima there. With all due respect, you need to rethink that.

My point is, that where we are at right now there is NOTHING we can do EXCEPT PRAY, about a proper consecration. It will happen in God's time, not yours or mine. I for one prefer to spend my long hours of concern over saving my soul and the souls of my loved ones.

Why not trust in God? Unless YOU can do something right now, then DO IT! If God has entrusted you with a great grace to rectify this crisis then by all means ... go forward.

I would really like to know exactly what you meant by posting these words; "because they cannot square Fatima with sedevacantism." Like so many others, my first impression is you really don't know or understand or care to learn exactly what sedevacantism means.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2017, 12:42:51 PM »

Quote from: Arvinger

Quote from: MyrnaM

Don't worry so much about Russia just Trust that God knows what He is doing and never try to tell God how to work out this crisis. That is a no, no!

This is kind of response which really disturbs me. The Mother of God comes to Earth and says that we must do so and so, and if we don't there will be consequences. So, is it something compulsory to do, or merely something optional? If it is optional, why are we warned that there will be tragic consequences, including annihilation of nations? No, it is not optional - Consecration of Russia is something that must be done and it is of utmost importance to fight towards that goal.

I have a question to all ''don't worry, just trust God's plan, and Fatima is a private revelation so it's not binding anyway" crowd. If Fatima is optional and not binding in any way, what if everyone in 1917, including Fatima children, dismissed it? After all, following your reasoning that it was just a private revelation, nobody - including Sister Lucia and subsequent Popes - had any obligation to believe it or to do anything about it. Everybody could just dismiss it saying ''private revelation, I don't believe it'' - theoretically, according to your reasoning, they would be within their rights to do so. How would that not be a rejection of a clear command and warning from Heaven?

I think that some sedevacantists push the ''private revelation, not binding'' narrative simply because they cannot square Fatima with sedevacantism. Also, as a sede you have to reject Akita apparitions, which say about the Holy Father, cardinals and bishops (for a sedevacantist there is neither a Holy Father nor cardinals now).

You come across sounding as though there were some friction between trusting in Providence and trusting in Fatima. Surely there isn't.

Now, the world's largest organization of sedevacantist priests (CMRI) is a Marian religious order and every year they hold a Fatima conference. Their calendar this year is a collection of pictures taken on pilgrimage to Fatima. Their seminary newsletters frequently involve Fatima. Maybe you can't "square" Fatima with sedevacantism, but sedevacantists certainly have no problem with it.

The apparitions at Fatima are approved by the Church, so no Catholic is allowed to treat them in any way that would undermine that approval. At the same time, its nature as a private revelation means that Catholics are not compelled to Fatima devotions the way that they are compelled to, say, the Nicene Creed.

Arvinger · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2017, 12:53:49 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Arvinger, not sure what flavor of sedevacantist you are familiar with however I will assure you that CMRI, (my church) each year has what they call a FATIMA CONFERENCE. I know of no one who dismisses the message of Fatima there. With all due respect, you need to rethink that.

There were sedevacantists even on this forum arguing that efforts towards Consecration of Russia are futile and it is too late, and that Pope Pius XII consecration might have been valid (which is absurd). Father Cekada even said that Fatima is a ''distraction'' from a real battle which is against modernism. You might want to check out Fr Chazal's open letter to Fr Cekada regarding Fatima:
https://catholiccandle.neocities.org/priests/2015-02-fr-chazal-ltr.html

I know you don't mean to dismiss Fatima, but when you write ''not to worry so much about Russia'', how is that not doing just that? Striving towards the Consecration of Russia is a duty of every Catholic right now.

Quote from: MyrnaM

My point is, that where we are at right now there is NOTHING we can do EXCEPT PRAY, about a proper consecration. It will happen in God's time, not yours or mine. I for one prefer to spend my long hours of concern over saving my soul and the souls of my loved ones.

Why not trust in God? Unless YOU can do something right now, then DO IT! If God has entrusted you with a great grace to rectify this crisis then by all means ... go forward.

I do trust in God, but that does not mean sitting back and doing nothing - God uses means to bring about His will, and our actions are one of them. Of course, I do pray for the Consecration of Russia and I believe it is extremely important. But we can do more - raise awareness about it and shout from the rooftops in the Catholic world about it. The more people realize it is necessary the more chance there is it will happen.

Quote from: MyrnaM

I would really like to know exactly what you meant by posting these words; "because they cannot square Fatima with sedevacantism." Like so many others, my first impression is you really don't know or understand or care to learn exactly what sedevacantism means.

It is simple - according to Fatima message the Pope must consecrate Russia with all bishops of the world. According to sedevacantists there is no Pope right now, so the Consecration of Russia is impossible right now. Of course, I do not say that we should dismiss sedevacantism on this basis (I'm a sede-doubtist myself and I think it is probable that the Chair of Peter is vacant), but it causes a problem about how to interpret Fatima for sedevacantists (especially ''terminal'' sedevacantists who believe that we are in End Times), which some of them resolve by simply saying it is ''not binding private revelation''.

Regarding me allegedly not knowing what sedevacantism means - I'm not sure how often you visit Crisis in the Church subforum, but I've been involved in many discussions on this issue, often defending sedevacantist arguments.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2017, 01:26:30 PM »

First I would like to say, I am sure that you do Trust God. Hopefully this back and forth is nothing but a misunderstanding of posting back and forth instead of speaking to each other. I don't always agree with someone just because they claim to be sede, as you say many post here arguing that efforts towards Consecration are too late; I would have to say they don't know that! Just because some will agree with Fr. Cekada while others will not doesn't mean that to accept the sede viewpoint means we can't have our own opinion about the time table of the crisis.

Quote

It is simple - according to Fatima message the Pope must consecrate Russia with all bishops of the world. According to sedevacantists there is no Pope right now, so the Consecration of Russia is impossible right now. Of course, I do not say that we should dismiss sedevacantism on this basis (I'm a sede-doubtist myself and I think it is probable that the Chair of Peter is vacant), but it causes a problem about how to interpret Fatima for sedevacantists (especially ''terminal'' sedevacantists who believe that we are in End Times), which some of them resolve by simply saying it is ''not binding private revelation''.

As a Sede, all I am saying is the man today named Francis doesn't himself like to be called pope, he is not Catholic and as a Catholic I believe the Pope must be a Catholic, pure and simple. If that boils down to my believing it is impossible to have this Consecration of Russia in your mind, allow me to remind you that Our Lady did also say that IN THE END RUSSIA WILL BE CONVERTED. Those words are a consolation to me because I believe what she said. Pope or no pope, God will not judge me, just because I haven't figured it out as to when, and how. All I know for sure is the Pope must be Catholic.

I have visited the Crisis subforum very often how else do you think I have over 5,000 posts to my credit. :stare:
Just lately I have been keeping a low profile on the Internet for personal reasons.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2017, 02:53:41 PM »

Quote from: Arvinger

Quote from: MyrnaM

Don't worry so much about Russia just Trust that God knows what He is doing and never try to tell God how to work out this crisis. That is a no, no!

This is kind of response which really disturbs me. The Mother of God comes to Earth and says that we must do so and so, and if we don't there will be consequences. So, is it something compulsory to do, or merely something optional?

Our Lady told a specific person to pass on a message containing a specific task. The Pope was/is to consecrate Russia. Myrna is completely correct in saying that the Catholic Faithful should trust in Our Lord and His time.

AMDGJMJ · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2017, 08:02:29 PM »

Quote from: josefamenendez

Thank- you everybody for your replies. There is a lot to consider.
My personality type is one that has difficulty taking things at face value. Maybe that is a lack of Faith- or maybe it is a search for Truth. Depends on what side of the coin faces up after the flip.
I just want to make sure that I recognize the true path to Restoration when I see it, but I guess that's why Our Lord said even the elect would be deceived if the days weren't shortened. I may be asking too much. We are impacted by the diabolical disorientation.
I do pray the Rosary (and more) and she said she would keep me on the path or bring me back if I fall off.
I was just trying to figure out how the R and R ( of where I am) and the Sede position view the present circuмstances in a little more detail and how the perceived solutions may shake out.
I guess the simple answer, like Naaman is the most difficult to accept. I must keep praying!

It is a tough world to live in right now, but keep praying and trying your best to do the right thing, and I am sure that God will lead you the correct way.

We are all here for you if you ever have any other questions!

Keep fighting and may God bless you!

Rita :-)