Author Topic: How to Explain Tradition to Neo-Catholic FriendsFamily? (Read 4844 times)

stevusmagnus · « **on:** December 07, 2010, 10:35:04 AM »

Hello All,

I wanted to get some opinions on where you all would begin when trying to explain the Traditional position on attendance at Traditional Chapels for Mass and only the TLM to those of your friends and family who are Novus Ordo.

One problem I seem to run into is not knowing where to even begin. Obviously there is a VAST store of information that runs through my brain when someone confronts my position or asks questions. But this store of info is so vast that it is, at times, overwhelming, and when put on the spot unexpectedly, sometimes only unorganized bits and pieces of info seem to come forth from me.

I'm looking for a more simple ordered defense of why we don't participate in diocesan parishes and the N.O. Mass.

The obvious immediate objections one is bound to run into are: "but that Chapel is not approved by the Bishop", "that Chapel is not in union with Rome", "how can you separate yourself from the authority of the Pope?", "how is your position any different from Protestants who separate themselves from the Church beause they disagree with the Pope?".

Clearly there are a MILLION possible Traditional responses to these objections that we could write volumes on.

The key to what I'm looking for, is a few short bulleted talking points I could have on hand to counter these common objections and give quick points to defend my position.

Although Sedes are welcome to give suggestions, obviously I'm not looking for explanations based on a vacant see, since I'm not a Sede.

Thanks in advance to anyone who contributes!

scipio_a · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:05:17 AM »

Slowly and carefully....no head on....walk the walk....just ask questions that will force them to think.....

OR if you have immediate family and friends that you want to come over...you can simply do the scipio 3 times method as outlined many times...and never known to have failed...one an open heart and mind.

The Mass itself will win them over and save you the effort....what a winner....and you won't come off looking like a know it all ass or pushy religious zealot weirdo.

scipio_a · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:23:56 AM »

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3433523.msg33343149.html#msg33343149

be sure to get them to COMMIT to 3 times straight...gently.

You can explain that it is so different that they may not like it at first....which is why they must commit to 3 times STRAIGHT...no NO fellowship in between.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:28:18 AM »

It does sound like a good plan to get one interested in the TLM.

However, some won't even set foot inside a Traditional Chapel if it is not "approved". Therefore inviting them to a TLM in your Chapel is a non-starter.

I'm looking more for points to make when explaining to someone why you attend an "unapproved" Chapel and why you attend the TLM exclusively.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2010, 03:53:46 PM »

This.

scipio_a · « **Reply #5 on:** December 07, 2010, 05:46:20 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

It does sound like a good plan to get one interested in the TLM.

However, some won't even set foot inside a Traditional Chapel if it is not "approved". Therefore inviting them to a TLM in your Chapel is a non-starter.

I'm looking more for points to make when explaining to someone why you attend an "unapproved" Chapel and why you attend the TLM exclusively.

I guarantee it's not worth the fight. It always led me down the path of getting them upset as they realized I thought that their attending the NO in any format was a sin (scandal)...drove them nuts...because their stand is that going to an SSPX chapel is sinful...

But those same people...when left to their own devices...in my case...started looking seriously into the local FSSP chapel...and as the progression goes...they'd soon find that gong FSSP they still have to put up with dioc bs and pay the tab for sex crimes...all while being relegated to second class members of the dioc. so they are even willing to look at SSPX now.

But the fact is some people will never get it, and I'm pretty sure it's not worth a fight to defend yourself...and it won't help them find their way.

You can always bow out by saying that your reasons would probably upset them...and then just invite them to come and see for themselves...you'd be surprised you might get a taker

no matter what you say they will be pissed off or think you're a kook

That is why I say ask questions....it leave it all in their park...and then they have to find the answers....not while they're talking to you...but they can use the internet.

I employed that one with my 13 yo sister...who dad had told that I thought I was more Cath than the pope....you've heard that crap before....and she thought she'd pull it out on me during conversation....
So I just asked her if she knew what the Koran was...she did...and I asked her if she thought a Pope should kiss such an evil book...she said no...then I asked if she was aware JP2 did...she was not...and I said...oh...well I've never done it either....food for thought....leave them hanging

Asked if the Cath faith was equal to others...she said no...Asked her if praying together with false religions and heretics as equals was a good thing...she said no...then I told her about JP doing it....the look on her face was priceless

------------------------

If you really must engage them...just tell the truth as succinctly as possible...

with SSPX or SSPV you are certain of your sacraments...no invalidity...and no scandal...just the real thing the old way.

proper catechesis

All sacraments the old way

No dioc BS like interference with the TLM by placing ridiculous limits on it and other sacraments

and no paying for sex crimes or modernist agendas....NONE

That should get them to stop badgering you...although they'll still never go to a TLM...LOL

GregorianChat · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2010, 09:57:28 PM »

If I were still in the Vatican II church and believed that the new sacrament of holy orders was valid. I would take them to the Motu Mass, that would solve the problem of “Is it approved by the bishop”. I hold the sedevacant position so I would NEVER recommend anyone go to the Motu over the SSPX.

But If you recognizes the authority of the diocese. I can’t understand why you wouldn’t just go to the Motu. I understand the SSPX fights modernism and the changes, but I don’t know what the purpose of going to a SSPX Mass is when the Motu Mass is available now in many places. Not wanting to pay for the sex crimes would not be a good enough reason for me to go to a “unapproved” chapel of a group that usually comes uninvited to a diocese. I am genuinely interested in how many here justify going to a priest that has no faculties from your local bishop, no matter how much more wonderful he is then the diocesan priest.

As for how you may lead people out of the N.O. and into the TLM exclusively. I like a lot of scipio’s advice.
I would ask them if they truly believed that the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Shouldn’t the way we dress, behave and worship demonstrate that belief? Did you know that the new mass was designed by six protestants. I have trouble with heretics advising Catholics about how we should worship. Did you know that no Saint ever went to the new mass? Wouldn’t it be nice to go to a mass that our Catholic ancestors have been going to for hundreds of years?

But then how do I get them to come to MY “unapproved” chapel? That’s when I bring up sedevacantism and of course they end up thinking I’m a kook and look at me with pity.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »

Quote

But If you recognizes the authority of the diocese. I can’t understand why you wouldn’t just go to the Motu. I understand the SSPX fights modernism and the changes, but I don’t know what the purpose of going to a SSPX Mass is when the Motu Mass is available now in many places. Not wanting to pay for the sex crimes would not be a good enough reason for me to go to a “unapproved” chapel of a group that usually comes uninvited to a diocese. I am genuinely interested in how many here justify going to a priest that has no faculties from your local bishop, no matter how much more wonderful he is then the diocesan priest.

The Motu Masses are typically located at Novus Ordo parishes. Thus if you regularly attend a Motu parish you will necessarily co-mingle with Novus Ordites and will hear VCII theology and quotes from post-conciliar Popes in the sermons. Also many take place in spaceship 70's churches on the outskirts of town. Also only the Mass is Traditional. You'd get all the rest of the sacraments as NO sacraments. Some places might do Trad Baptisms or weddings if you are lucky.

In the end it is incomplete. It isn't a full Traditional parish life. Faculties from the local Bishop are irrelevant to me since the local Bishop is a Modernist and it would never dawn on him to give faculties to actual Catholic priests in his diocese, plus the Traditional priests have supplied jurisdiction for the sacraments anyway. Neo-Caths bringing up faculties to me is like straining at gnats (technical points of law) while swallowing camels (the New Theology & Mass).

GregorianChat · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2010, 10:34:12 PM »

Do you reject any of the NO sacraments as being invalid?

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2010, 10:35:16 PM »

Quote from: GregorianChat

Do you reject any of the NO sacraments as being invalid?

Not per se. Possibility some may be on a case by case basis depending on the circuмstances.

Caminus · « **Reply #10 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:34:58 PM »

Quote

"but that Chapel is not approved by the Bishop"

But the Bishop approves of all false sects, therefore if we were a false sect, then we should have his approval. Why does he not approve of a traditional Catholic Mass center?

Quote

"that Chapel is not in union with Rome",

It is more in union with Rome than the USCCB.

Quote

"how can you separate yourself from the authority of the Pope?",

Can you explain how following traditional Catholicism amounts to separating from authority of the Pope?

Quote

"how is your position any different from Protestants who separate themselves from the Church beause they disagree with the Pope?".

Name one dogma or doctrine that a traditional Catholic denies. If you cannot, the parity must necessarily fail. Consequently, the question needs to be reformulated intelligently. Now, if a bishop espouses an idea or practice that has already been condemned or leads to bad things, not good things, what should a Catholic do? Furthermore, if so-called 'communion' is now seemingly based on these very ideas would it not create a dilemma? And if one merely wanted to retain the traditions of the Church and reject what the Church has always rejected, on what grounds do you complain if you claim to be a member of the same Church? It is not traditionalists that need to explain their position, rather it is the bishop who chases after novelty while the flock is being destroyed that must answer an interrogation. Do not be so enamored with authority while the faith is ruined. This is to invert reality and make the faith serve the law.

Caminus · « **Reply #11 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:41:51 PM »

Some more thoughts. Tradition is the manifestation of Divine Wisdom. It is the necessary starting point of every Catholic who desires to learn anything at all about religion. Abandon tradition and you abandon any hope of understanding religion. Any form of approved tradition is necessarily inimical to the spirit of the world, the flesh and the devil. Consequently any mitigation or nullification of tradition is to invite these wicked spirits into the Church.

Wessex · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2010, 05:57:55 AM »

Modern people want religion served up in new ways. If they exercise that human need for some spiritual validation of their way of life, they may find it in that permissive church that now carries the Catholic franchise. They will reject those old values that condemn the liberalisms of today.

A neo-Catholic is likely to regard the old church as a different religion with its own theology, liturgy and moral framework. They rejoice at being liberated from the past and regard any attempt at a revival as backward and reactionary. One can always pick up that attitude among friends and family members. They assume that everyone should be in tune with secular society. It would be too much for such people to go back; even Ratzinger declares in his most conservative attire that there will be no going back. You must believe him.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2010, 08:23:33 AM »

I ran into someone who says they called the chancery and the chancery said that assisting at Mass at my Chapel does NOT fulfill one's Sunday obligation.

What is the best response?

The first thing that came to mind is that the Chancery can kiss my backside, but I figured that wouldn't be appropriate...

My next thought was to delve into PCED letters, but that would take forever and is hyper technical.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2010, 09:21:39 AM »

One thing to know is that when trying to show someone that the NO is nothing but a joke and is not the true Mass of the Church, chances are you'll get some long faces, people staring at you in shock, and will probably be chewed out for "having the nerve to say such a thing". If the person you're trying to convert to Traditionalism already thinks there is something wrong with the NO or, at the very least, would be willing to hear the truth, then you're in good shape. If the person is flaming liberal who is spiritually blind though, then don't expect much.

The first thing I would do is introduce them to the Traditional Latin Mass. Tell them what it is, explain to them its history, and if possible take them to one. Or if you can't then show them one on tv or the internet. The next step is to explain to them how it got taken away from most parishes and then say why the NO is basically nothing more than a Protestant service. You have to start off sort of slow when telling them. If you come right out and say "The NO is evil" they'll just walk away. However, if you slowly but steadily keep telling them in the kindest way possible, they just might get it. If they don't understand no matter what you tell them though, then the only thing left you can really do is pray for them. That would be my approach. Pius X said that it is very rare to convert a modernist. Of course, he never said it was impossible. It would probably only happen though if it was someone who was already searching for the truth. One other thing I'd do is give them a few books to read (or just recommend some, if they'd even be willing to read them). After you do all you can, their conversion is really in God's Hands.