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Author Topic: How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".  (Read 2984 times)

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Offline PG

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45:30 starts the question answer topic about bad past popes vs sedevacantism.  At 46:00 he says that "if he(immoral pope) were upholding the catholic faith, we wouldn't really care if he were immoral"("he is not a danger to our faith").  At 46:15 he then says that "we would pray that he die perhaps"(pray death upon a pope?)!

Put that into perspective.  He is not talking about a heretic or a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ pope.
 He is just talking about an immoral one that "we wouldn't really care" about.    

I don't want to start a big online fight, because I won't participate, but Fr. Sanborn is a fraud!  It is a sin to wish evil upon someone, and it is a mortal sin to hate someone.  If such immoral pope died, he would go to hell!  I think it would be better to pray for his conversion!  But, no, Fr. Sanborn says otherwise.




"A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


Online Ladislaus

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How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 07:29:35 PM »
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  • Yeah, I was a bit taken aback by that comment also.


    Offline PG

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 07:55:51 PM »
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  • "For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed: nor hidden, that shall not be known."

    "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Exurge

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 08:11:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: + PG +
    It is a sin to wish evil upon someone, and it is a mortal sin to hate someone.


    Not so. Wishing evil on someone is not intrinsically bad or wrong, depends what your intentions are.

    Quote
    St. Thomas, II-II, Q. 76:
    On the other hand if a man commands or desires another's evil under the aspect of good, it is lawful; and it may be called cursing, not strictly speaking, but accidentally, because the chief intention of the speaker is directed not to evil but to good.

    Now evil may be spoken, by commanding or desiring it, under the aspect of a twofold good. Sometimes under the aspect of just, and thus a judge lawfully curses a man whom he condemns to a just penalty: thus too the Church curses by pronouncing anathema. In the same way the prophets in the Scriptures sometimes call down evils on sinners, as though conforming their will to Divine justice, although such like imprecation may be taken by way of foretelling. Sometimes evil is spoken under the aspect of useful, as when one wishes a sinner to suffer sickness or hindrance of some kind, either that he may himself reform, or at least that he may cease from harming others.

    To wish another man evil under the aspect of good, is not opposed to the sentiment whereby one wishes him good simply, in fact rather is it in conformity therewith.


    You appear to have no notion of the commom good either.

    Quote from: + PG +
    If such immoral pope died, he would go to hell!


    Better him to go there than countless souls wouldn't you think?


    Offline Mabel

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 08:25:57 PM »
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  • I'm reminded of stories of saints, particularly St. Rita, where they have prayed for the death of a person rather than have them commit great sins. St. Rita prayed for God to take her sons if it would prevent them from sinning against Him in a terrible way. And they did.

    I can't really get into the mind of Sanborn to understand how he means it regarding the issue. It seems to me that there are cases where it is charitable and some where it is not.


    Offline PG

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 09:17:26 PM »
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  • Exurge - I am glad you brought Aquinas into this, but I disagree with how you are applying him.  Don't forget or ignore that I said that we need to "put this into perspective".  Because, if the man parading as pope were someone committing sins that cry to heaven for vengeance, wishing death could indeed be a mercy.

    But, if you listen to what Bp. Sanborn is saying(he is referring to a past pope(s) - that is the question topic - that "are not a danger to the faith"), I do not believe it would be a mercy. He is referring to wishing death upon an immoral pope that is not committing sins that cry to heaven for vengeance.  There is a difference.

    Mabel - thank you for the comment and example.  In St. Rita's case, her sons were not in the state of disgrace(mortal/"deplorable" sin) like the pope in question is("deplorable" is Sanborn's wording).  St. Rita's prayer is different than Fr. Sanborn's.  Her sons go to heaven, his pope goes to hell.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #6 on: April 09, 2014, 09:26:50 PM »
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  • Exurge - re-reading your post, I might add this as well, "judge not, lest ye be judged".

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline crossbro

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #7 on: April 09, 2014, 09:44:00 PM »
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  • Pope Francis knows that he does not have much time, at this point it does not matter if he dies or not, the damage is done, the perve has pretty much accomplished his mission.

    And when he dies just wait and see who they have in store for us.


    Offline Exurge

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #8 on: April 09, 2014, 10:03:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: + PG +
    Exurge - I am glad you brought Aquinas into this, but I disagree with how you are applying him.  Don't forget or ignore that I said that we need to "put this into perspective".  Because, if the man parading as pope were someone committing sins that cry to heaven for vengeance, wishing death could indeed be a mercy.

    But, if you listen to what Bp. Sanborn is saying(he is referring to a past pope(s) - that is the question topic - that "are not a danger to the faith"), I do not believe it would be a mercy. He is referring to wishing death upon an immoral pope that is not committing sins that cry to heaven for vengeance.  There is a difference.


    You're right about that, but what Sanborn said was in passing anyways and upon questioning he probably wouldn't say he meant to wish the death of any immoral Pope who is not scandalous, although he probably implied him being a scandal.

    Quote from: + PG +
    Exurge - re-reading your post, I might add this as well, "judge not, lest ye be judged".


    To see or to know something is not to judge. -St. Francis de Sales.

    Offline PG

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 02:20:30 PM »
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  • Crossbro - It is culture shock going from Benedict to Francis, and I think that was part of the plan.  Fr. Sanborn gave a talk on the past "pendulum papacy", and I think there is some wisdom in looking at current modernist Rome in that light.  With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a conservatively V2 royal type of Rome next!  

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Nishant

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #10 on: April 10, 2014, 02:27:23 PM »
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  • Cardinal Cajetan says this on the matter, in the course of a lengthy argument on why the Church should rely on prayer alone in such a case (he was controverting Gallicans and others who believed it lawful to depose a Pope for some criminal acts of immorality).

    Quote
    "If you tell me that prayer is but a common remedy to be used against all the ills that afflict us, and that for the special evil that troubles us here we need a proper remedy -- since every effect comes of a proper cause, not merely from general causes -- I reply, in a general way, that the highest causes, although they play the part of common causes in respect of lower effects, play in fact the part of proper causes in respect of higher effects. And that is why prayer, which is to be put among the highest of supernatural second causes, is only a common cause of lower effects; but it is a proper cause and the proper remedy for the highest effects, such as would be -- since it is matter reserved for God -- the removal from this world of a still believing but incorrigible Pope ...

    If then, on the one hand, the means available to human effort [providentia humana], even if super-elevated by the authority of the Church, are a force inferior to prayer, appointed as the highest of second causes by God, to whom all creatures, corporeal or spiritual, are subject; and if, on the other hand, a remedy against a bad but still believing Pope is among the highest effects in the Church, it follows that God, in His wisdom, must have given the Church for remedy against a bad Pope, not now any of these merely human means which may avail for the rest of the Church, but prayer alone. And can the prayer of the Church, when she perseveringly asks things needful for her salvation, be any less efficacious than merely human means? Is not the fervent prayer of an individual soul who asks such things for himself, already efficacious and infallible?  'If then the salvation of the Church demands that such and such a Pope should be removed, then undoubtedly the prayer we have mentioned will remove him ...

    So, if a Pope hardened in evil ways appears, his subordinates, without leaving their own vices, content themselves with daily murmurings against the evil regime; they do not seek to avail themselves, save perhaps in a dream and without faith, of the remedy of prayer; so that what Scripture predicts comes about by their fault, namely that it is due to the sins of the people that a hypocrite reigns over them, holy in respect of his office, but a devil at heart. . . We have become blind to the point of refusing to pray as we ought, while yet desiring the fruit of prayer; of refusing to sow, while still wanting to reap. Let us not call ourselves Christians any longer! Or if we do, let us turn to Christ; and the Pope, were he frantic, furious, tyrannical, a render, dilapidator and corrupter of the Church, would be overcome. But if we do not know how to overcome ourselves, what right have we to complain of being unable to break through the evils that surround us by prayers that not only fail to rise through our roofs, but do not even mount as far as our heads?

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline Exurge

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #11 on: April 10, 2014, 02:33:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Cardinal Cajetan says this on the matter, in the course of a lengthy argument on why the Church should rely on prayer alone in such a case (he was controverting Gallicans and others who believed it lawful to depose a Pope for some criminal acts of immorality).

    Quote
    "If you tell me that prayer is but a common remedy to be used against all the ills that afflict us, and that for the special evil that troubles us here we need a proper remedy -- since every effect comes of a proper cause, not merely from general causes -- I reply, in a general way, that the highest causes, although they play the part of common causes in respect of lower effects, play in fact the part of proper causes in respect of higher effects. And that is why prayer, which is to be put among the highest of supernatural second causes, is only a common cause of lower effects; but it is a proper cause and the proper remedy for the highest effects, such as would be -- since it is matter reserved for God -- the removal from this world of a still believing but incorrigible Pope ...

    If then, on the one hand, the means available to human effort [providentia humana], even if super-elevated by the authority of the Church, are a force inferior to prayer, appointed as the highest of second causes by God, to whom all creatures, corporeal or spiritual, are subject; and if, on the other hand, a remedy against a bad but still believing Pope is among the highest effects in the Church, it follows that God, in His wisdom, must have given the Church for remedy against a bad Pope, not now any of these merely human means which may avail for the rest of the Church, but prayer alone. And can the prayer of the Church, when she perseveringly asks things needful for her salvation, be any less efficacious than merely human means? Is not the fervent prayer of an individual soul who asks such things for himself, already efficacious and infallible?  'If then the salvation of the Church demands that such and such a Pope should be removed, then undoubtedly the prayer we have mentioned will remove him ...

    So, if a Pope hardened in evil ways appears, his subordinates, without leaving their own vices, content themselves with daily murmurings against the evil regime; they do not seek to avail themselves, save perhaps in a dream and without faith, of the remedy of prayer; so that what Scripture predicts comes about by their fault, namely that it is due to the sins of the people that a hypocrite reigns over them, holy in respect of his office, but a devil at heart. . . We have become blind to the point of refusing to pray as we ought, while yet desiring the fruit of prayer; of refusing to sow, while still wanting to reap. Let us not call ourselves Christians any longer! Or if we do, let us turn to Christ; and the Pope, were he frantic, furious, tyrannical, a render, dilapidator and corrupter of the Church, would be overcome. But if we do not know how to overcome ourselves, what right have we to complain of being unable to break through the evils that surround us by prayers that not only fail to rise through our roofs, but do not even mount as far as our heads?



    That's very good. Where is that from?

    Offline Nishant

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #12 on: April 10, 2014, 02:35:35 PM »
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  • Exurge, the citation is from Cardinal Cajetan's work, De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, cap. xxvii
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #13 on: April 10, 2014, 03:46:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Yeah, I was a bit taken aback by that comment also.


    Same here; however, I'm not sure how this proves he is a "fraud" as the OP asserts.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline PG

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    How to be catholic under immoral pope 101 - "pray that he die perhaps".
    « Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 02:49:31 PM »
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  • "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15