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Author Topic: How small is too small?  (Read 2854 times)

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Offline PG

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How small is too small?
« on: May 27, 2017, 09:59:17 PM »
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  • Matthew uses the "stepping on Jesus in fallen host particles" argument as to why there can never be attendance/participation at a "decent" or perhaps even a traditional Novus ordo(forgive me matthew if I misquote you, but I don't think I am).  But, that doesn't offer much hope.  So, I have looked into this further, and I would like some feedback/opinion.

    Who here disagrees with this article when it comes to the section I have pasted below?  And, why do you disagree with it?  Because, it seems to refute what matthew says.  

    http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2012/07/fragments-of-eucharistic-species.html
    How small is too small?
    Still, we must emphasize that some persons fall into serious confusion on this point. Because every particle of the consecrated Host is surely Jesus, they think that even every microscopic particle which falls from the Host is also Jesus – but in this, they err.
    A piece of the Host which is visible to the human eye (under usual conditions and without assistance) as what appears to be a piece of bread, is surely Jesus. However, those particles which are so small as to be invisible to the human eye, or to be indistinguishable from a particle of dust – these cannot any longer be the Eucharist.
    The Church teaches that the Eucharistic Presence remains “as long as the Eucharist species subsist”. This means that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, so long as the Eucharist retains the accidental properties of bread and wine. Hence, if a Host is dissolved in water (as is done when the Host has become putrefied, as through vomiting after the reception of Communion), upon being dissolved it is not longer the Eucharist. Likewise, the Precious Blood, when the Chalice is purified with water (and wine), is no longer the Eucharist.
    The same must hold true for those particles which are so small as to be unrecognizable as “bread”. If the fragment is so small as to appear to be dust or a speck of some other substance, rather than a “crumb” of bread, it can no longer be the Eucharist. Likewise, those microscopic particles which fall from the Host are not the Eucharist, since they clearly do not retain the appearance of bread.
    Excessive scrupulosity about such things will only cause the true faith to be ridiculed. Indeed, in this case, the words of the Catechism of the Council of Trent are most helpful. Warning priests to dissuade the people from a vain curiosity into such mysteries, the Roman Catechism states:
    “No less of caution should be observed by pastors in explaining the mysterious manner in which the body of our Lord is contained whole and entire under the least particle of the bread. Indeed, discussions of this kind should scarcely ever be entered upon.
    “Should Christian charity, however, require a departure from this rule, the pastor should remember first of all to prepare and fortify his hearers by reminding them that no word shall be impossible with God.”
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline PG

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #1 on: May 27, 2017, 10:00:09 PM »
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  • http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur177.htm  
    EWTN argues in this article the same, and quotes st. thomas aquinas as authority.  
    I bring this up, because another traditional catholic is denying friendship with me because I disagree with him that one "steps on jesus" in these particles when they go to communion at the NO.  It has become his superdogma despite my arguing against it.  And, I have been hearing this argument come from matthew often.  So, I wonder if it has become his superdogma as well(no disrespect matthew).
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #2 on: May 27, 2017, 11:19:22 PM »
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  • I think this is an interesting topic and something I've not seen discussed before.

    EWTN summed up the issue pretty well:


    Quote
    Thus, while Christ would certainly not be present in microscopic or no longer visible fragments, it is almost impossible to establish a dividing line when dealing with small but visible particles  and the Church has never wished to pronounce on this theme.

    In part this is due to the objective difficulty and danger in making such a demarcation, but also so as avoid giving any justification whatsoever for a lackadaisical manner of treating the sacred species.


    Unfortunately, communion in the hand is by its nature a lackadaisical manner of treating the sacred species.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline poche

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #3 on: May 28, 2017, 01:55:11 AM »
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  • There is the story of St Clement Hofbauer. There was a priest of the community who would furiously wipe the paten at mass. St Clement approached him one day and said, "Leave some for the angels." 

    Offline White Wolf

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    How small is too small?
    « Reply #4 on: May 28, 2017, 09:04:08 AM »
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  • Actually, what the Church teaches is that a particle of the Sacred Host must be recognizable as such.  Even visible particles the size of dust are not considered consecrated particles unless they are CERTAINLY residue (on the Paten, for example).
    But the "stepping on fallen particles" as a reason for not attending New Mass is stupid.  That is like saying I will walk across a mine field as long as I don't step in dog poop.
    The Novus Ordo is sacrilege.  No matter how much lipstick Moto-Church puts on this pig, it is still a pig.  Catholics do Our Lord and Our Lady no favors when they go to this "Mass" to avoid arguments, out of human respect, or because everybody else is doing it.

    What if Pope Frantic had a Mass, and nobody came?
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #5 on: May 28, 2017, 09:14:34 AM »
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  • Actually, what the Church teaches is according to Thomistic philosophy. That the Eucharist is "food", and crumbs are not considered food, so these small particles are not Our Lord. But because they once were, they are treated as the greatest relics.

    The Church has not determined how big a crumb must be before it is considered food. The Church merely keeps a VERY safe distance from a crumb when prescribing that priests who need to give Communion to someone having trouble swallowing can give a small portion of a host, but it it can only be so small, and no smaller that prescribed. I forget the exact size, but it is sizable.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #6 on: May 28, 2017, 04:31:50 PM »
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  • Tell your N.O. acquaintance that it is true what he says.  He is not stepping on Jesus in the New Order, for they do not Have Jesus.  They have just a wafer and nothing more.  Thank God he is not truly Present in the New Order.  New Order has no Catholic Sense of True Presence anyway.  Very sad!  And direct your acquaintance with Chapter 12 of Daniel, the end of the Continual Sacrifice of the Mass.  Luther gave it a head start being an Anti-Christ.  Luther's was continue in the New Order.

    Offline PG

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #7 on: May 28, 2017, 07:04:07 PM »
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  • Thanks for the post Bumphrey.

    Here is some food for thought.

    "It is not good to take the bread of the children and cast it to dogs".  Response: Yes, the paten does serve an important useful purpose.

    "Even the whelps eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table".  Response: Did somebody mention Puppies?  ; )
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline songbird

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #8 on: May 28, 2017, 10:22:38 PM »
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  • Define pope.  Preferably from Vatican I.

    Offline congaudeant

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #9 on: May 29, 2017, 08:52:14 AM »
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  • Decades ago, as a novus ordo parishioner, I did see larger particles of the hosts come apart from the main body of the hosts. The church we were attending used a type of bread that flaked at the edges when handled and pieces would fall off. These were not microscopic either, yet were small and light enough that anyone receiving communion in the hand would find residual pieces of the host from time to time. There were no patens being used in the communion line either.

    So many abuses in the novus ordo....
    Congaudeant Catholici

    Offline PG

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #10 on: May 29, 2017, 10:38:01 AM »
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    • I wonder if a good dividing line is just under the size that the priest breaks off and places in the chalice.  I do not know how large that is, but I would imagine it is between 1/8-1/4 inch in diameter.  And, recalling my NO days where the priest would often give me one of the hosts broken from the large main host, it had flakey edges.  But, those flakes I doubt even reach 1/16th of an inch at their largest.  So, these flakes and particles would never reach the size that I suspect is considered "real presence".  But, that doesn't mean I ever dusted them off on the floor.  I consumed them.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #11 on: May 29, 2017, 11:08:40 AM »
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  • If small particles of the Host are not Our Lord, then why does the Tridentine Rite prescribe the use of a paten (both for the priest and the Faithful)?

    Why are there so many purification rubrics in place, so that the priest gathers and consumes any particles that might fall on the Corporal during the Holy Sacrifice?

    Poche's anecdote is neither here nor there. The rubrics require that the priest scrapes the round paten on the linen cloth below it (the corporal) to scrape up any particles, and these are dumped into the chalice, to which water/wine are added and the priest consumes all of it. So this isn't about a priest over-doing it, or being OCD about it. It's actually a question of the prescribed rubrics of the timeless Tridentine Mass!

    I, for one, wouldn't want to risk stepping on consecrated Particles. Even if most of them were "too small" and lost the Real Presence, what if a few of them were large enough?

    And there are plenty of other issues, including the fact that every Novus Ordo building is a DESECRATED church. Better a garage, warehouse, or other "mission" location, which is at least neutral and even humbly dedicated to offering the true Mass, rather than a consecrated place which has been desecrated by profane and secular use (including the N.O.M.)

    What about my other comments, PG? The issue of exposing your family (including impressionable children) to the whole Novus Ordo package, minus the N.O. Mass itself? All the banners, propaganda, signage, architecture, art, posters, hymnals, and even parishioners!

    Isn't the message -- constantly transmitted and often received -- that we are weird, different, or even disobedient, while the Novus Ordo is "normal" and what most people do? How can you keep your children from being human; from processing stimuli in a completely human way?

    And another thing -- how many Indult "Latin Masses" are said by a priest TRAINED in a Traditional seminary -- who understands the Traditional movement and what it's about? None of them. None of them were trained by the SSPX, the Resistance, the SSPV, or the CMRI. In their mind (which means IN THEIR SERMONS), there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Conciliar Church or the Novus Ordo. How is this not super-dangerous?

    Like I said recently -- even if you manage to stay Traditional (i.e., attend the Tridentine Mass faithfully), I would almost bet money that your children will NOT be so steadfast. This warning applies to anyone who would attend Mass at an Indult/Novus Ordo shared facility.

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    Offline PG

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #12 on: May 29, 2017, 03:38:52 PM »
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  • Matthew - Do not subject your intellect/judgement(or anyone else's for that matter) to having to qualify every issue all at once.  All of these issues are not intimately connected.  


    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #13 on: May 29, 2017, 08:20:40 PM »
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  • There's an old saying that says, "Actions speak louder than words."

    It seems that the arguments that would make the particles of the Eucharist into mere crumbs of bread come from the theologians (i.e., "according to Thomistic philosophy").  Yet the Church's actions requiring "so many purification rubrics...so that the priest gathers and consumes any particles that might fall on the Corporal during the Holy Sacrifice."  Indeed, should a Host fall to the ground, the priest meticulously cleans the floor and ensures that not one crumb should be left.

    Matthew here is absolutely correct.  

    The error is when we put more stock into the theological disputations of the theologians rather than the rock-solid teachings of the Magisterium in her official acts and commands.  All too often we see (and this is a common tactic of the liberals and we see it, unfortunately, here on CathInfo by a number of amateur theologians) people quote the theologians and interpret them to agree with their opinions rather than accept the infallible teachings of the Church.

    Offline PG

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    Re: How small is too small?
    « Reply #14 on: May 29, 2017, 10:54:06 PM »
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  • I am not at all suggesting we do away with the paten or traditional rubrics, but what I am saying is that you error when you damn NO laity for that particular reason.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15