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Author Topic: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?  (Read 1777 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2020, 05:14:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: SAP1571 on September 22, 2020, 02:48:19 AM
    But wasn't exactly this issue (i.e. whether all priests who come to Tradition have to be conditionally re-ordained) the controversy between the Nine and Abp. Lefebvre when Abp. Lefebvre allowed Fr. Philip Stark to function in SSPX without conditional re-ordination? So how can you claim to follow the line of Abp. Lefebvre (which is what Resistance always claims to do) when your argument against the SSPX is basically the same as one of the arguments of the Nine for abandoning SSPX?

    Also, what about Fr. Perez, Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Gruner and Fr. Hesse? Majority of people in Resistance support at least one of those priests... Abp. Felebvre was a friend of Fr. Hesse and Bp. Williamson (nor any other SSPX priest) ever warned the faithful about Fr. Gruner's supposedly doubtful sacraments...
    I want to echo this question.

    I personally do believe the arguments by salza and siscoe for validity are strong, and then there's the fact that the Church seems to say they are valid (and I'm including SSPX here). and then there's the fact that the ordinations question is at this point clearly connected with the Pope question and while I won't say I have mathematical certainty that Francis is the Pope, I will say I ought to and must presume that until I am told otherwise by legitimate authority.  

    And yeah from what I recall, Lefebvre didn't always do conditional ordinations either. 

    I can understand preferring that, but I don't see how it was ever the SSPX line.  And at this point (maybe not in the 80s) I think doubting the rites of ordination necessarily entails sededoubtism as well.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #16 on: September 22, 2020, 07:22:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on September 21, 2020, 02:25:58 PM

    I imagine that conditional confirmations will be banned soon, sadly.


    I was confirmed in the NO in 1970 and even at 13 years old, I knew it wasn't right. 6 years ago I was inspired to re-examine my confirmation, and began looking for a conditional one. The SSPX did not respond to any inquiries so by the Grace of Our Lady I was able to get conditionally confirmed by
    Bishop Williamson.

    Maybe the SSPX has already banned them
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #17 on: September 22, 2020, 07:43:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on September 22, 2020, 07:22:57 PM
    Maybe the SSPX has already banned them

    I think it varies by place because at my chapel a woman was conditionally confirmed last year. There was no investigation and no classes to take, she just asked if she could be conditionally confirmed when she heard that one of the bishops would be doing confirmations in a few weeks, and they just told her to bring her baptismal certificate and she was confirmed by one of the SSPX bishops right away.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #18 on: September 22, 2020, 10:37:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: SAP1571 on September 22, 2020, 02:48:19 AM
    But wasn't exactly this issue (i.e. whether all priests who come to Tradition have to be conditionally re-ordained) the controversy between the Nine and Abp. Lefebvre when Abp. Lefebvre allowed Fr. Philip Stark to function in SSPX without conditional re-ordination? So how can you claim to follow the line of Abp. Lefebvre (which is what Resistance always claims to do) when your argument against the SSPX is basically the same as one of the arguments of the Nine for abandoning SSPX?

    Also, what about Fr. Perez, Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Gruner and Fr. Hesse? Majority of people in Resistance support at least one of those priests... Abp. Felebvre was a friend of Fr. Hesse and Bp. Williamson (nor any other SSPX priest) ever warned the faithful about Fr. Gruner's supposedly doubtful sacraments...
    Although this is a Resistance forum, I don't swear by any particular group.
    While I believe that Abp. Lefebvre was a very wise and saintly man, I don't think that he was perfect in everything he did. Apparently, he never took the time to study the new ordination rites, nor he had a strong position in them. That is why he allowed "new rite priests" into the SSPX.
    The more you study, the more you find inconsistencies in the "Recognize and Resist" logic. Actually, all the traditionalist positions have some problems, and that's why this whole crisis is so terrible.
    I always knew that there was this validity problem in the SSPX, but we tend not to worry sp much about certain things until they are happening to us.
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    Offline joe17

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #19 on: September 23, 2020, 12:51:03 AM »
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    • Word is  Fr Stretenovich was conditionally ordained by Bp Williamson last year.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #20 on: September 23, 2020, 06:52:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: SAP1571 on September 22, 2020, 02:48:19 AM
    But wasn't exactly this issue (i.e. whether all priests who come to Tradition have to be conditionally re-ordained) the controversy between the Nine and Abp. Lefebvre when Abp. Lefebvre allowed Fr. Philip Stark to function in SSPX without conditional re-ordination? So how can you claim to follow the line of Abp. Lefebvre (which is what Resistance always claims to do) when your argument against the SSPX is basically the same as one of the arguments of the Nine for abandoning SSPX?

    Also, what about Fr. Perez, Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Gruner and Fr. Hesse? Majority of people in Resistance support at least one of those priests... Abp. Felebvre was a friend of Fr. Hesse and Bp. Williamson (nor any other SSPX priest) ever warned the faithful about Fr. Gruner's supposedly doubtful sacraments...
    Yes, one of them:
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NineLetter.pdf
    The Nine noticed a number of the same issues back in the early 80's.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #21 on: September 23, 2020, 11:09:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 23, 2020, 06:52:27 AM
    Yes, one of them:
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NineLetter.pdf
    The Nine noticed a number of the same issues back in the early 80's.
    I had never read this. Quite interesting. A number of these issues are still present in the SSPX. I would say that they have gotten worse with time. 
    Kind of ironic how they talk about not settling speculative theology questions but now profess "dogmatic" sedevacantism.
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    Online songbird

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #22 on: September 23, 2020, 02:01:39 PM »
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    • I too question.  Just because a New Order priest asks for ordination of SSPX, is not enough to satisfy me.  Their formation needs to be reformed and checked out to the degree!  We don't need "pretenders".  You don't need infection in the group.  Just because there is a conditional ordination, mercy what does that mean?!  A Sacrament needs intention of he one receiving.  Also the one receiving needs to be in sanctifying grace before taking on another sacrament.  Do they have confession of sorrow before conditional ordination, whatever that is?
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #23 on: September 23, 2020, 02:14:08 PM »
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    • For me it's pretty simple, I avoid going to Novus Ordo ordained priests.  I make sure the priest was ordained in the old rite by a bishop who was himself ordained and then consecrated in the old rite by a valid bishop.   
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: How should we deal with a non conditionally ordained priest in the SSPX?
    « Reply #24 on: September 23, 2020, 02:26:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: SAP1571 on September 22, 2020, 02:48:19 AM
    But wasn't exactly this issue (i.e. whether all priests who come to Tradition have to be conditionally re-ordained) the controversy between the Nine and Abp. Lefebvre when Abp. Lefebvre allowed Fr. Philip Stark to function in SSPX without conditional re-ordination? So how can you claim to follow the line of Abp. Lefebvre (which is what Resistance always claims to do) when your argument against the SSPX is basically the same as one of the arguments of the Nine for abandoning SSPX?

    Also, what about Fr. Perez, Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Gruner and Fr. Hesse? Majority of people in Resistance support at least one of those priests... Abp. Felebvre was a friend of Fr. Hesse and Bp. Williamson (nor any other SSPX priest) ever warned the faithful about Fr. Gruner's supposedly doubtful sacraments...
    Bishop Williamson, Fellay and Tissier, said Fr. Hesse did not need re-ordination (at least according to Fr. Hesse). The same scenario would then apply to Fr. Hess's former classmates, Fr. Gruner and Fr. Kramer. At that time, the SSPX policy was to investigate on a case by case basis and only when the priests would offer sacraments to SSPX faithful. As far as I know, only Fr. Kramer ever assisted the SSPX at one of the SSPX chapels, (back in the 1990's ?)

    Fr. Sretenovic, was conditionally re-ordained after he left Fr. Perez. (He came on Cathinfo not too long ago and wrote about it). It seems to be the policy for the SAJM to conditionally ordain any priests wishing to directly collaborate with them.
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