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Author Topic: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?  (Read 184185 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
« Reply #960 on: January 02, 2018, 06:15:29 PM »
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    That is incorrect.  The hierarchy consists of all those men who have legitimately been received into the clerical state and remain so.  Until Paul VI there was not any confusion about when a man entered the clerical state.  He entered the clerical state when he received first tonsure.  If you look at pre-V2 theology manuals it will become clear that all clerics are members of the hierarchy.  

    I'm talking about the 'hierarchy' when it comes to the idea of obedience.  For example, according to your definition, a monk is part of the clergy.  Ok, but I owe him no obedience because he's not in a position of authority in the diocese.  On the other hand, a diocesan priest has authority over a layman in his diocese, because the priest takes the place of the bishop, whom the layman is bound to obey under the laws of the Church.  But a layman does NOT owe obedience to a diocesan priest from a different diocese, strictly speaking, because this priest has no jurisdiction outside his diocese.


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    Also, while few if any traditional Catholic clerics claim jurisdiction, they certainly do enforce discipline upon those faithful who receive sacraments from them.
    When a layman goes to a priest, any priest, for confession, they are giving their obedience to him and they give assent to follow the priest, or else they would not get absolution.  These are the rules of the sacrament.  My point is that no trad laymen has to go to a PARTICULAR priest, for any sacrament or mass, out of obedience.  This differs from the "norm" of Church diocesan rules.


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    So in effect the faithful are following the clergy.  

    Yes, they are following them of their own choice, not from a requirement under diocesan law.


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    It's ironic that according to you, "switching trad groups" constitutes evidence that they do not follow the clergy given that the very same problem is far more prevalent in the Conciliar church where people regularly go "shopping" for a parish or priest who fits their desires.  It is the lack of a pope who is the unifying principle of the Catholic Church which is responsible for the parish shopping activities of those who wish to remain Catholic.

    "Parish shopping" is not due to a lack of a pope; it is due to the relaxation of Church law, whereby after vatican 2, the idea and strict rules of parishes were changed, so that one could go to any parish in the diocese.  It used to be that one could ONLY go to YOUR parish for the sacraments.  That's it.  Your parish priest knew you very well and you were bound to him in all things.  If you wanted to go to confession at a different parish, you had to get permission, or else you sinned against Church law.


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     I will grant you that some people are likely to be guilty at some level of private judgment, but I don't think it is a serious problem.  The vast majority of traditional Catholics are following the lead of Catholic clergy.
    Yes, the vast majority are following their trad clergy and there's nothing wrong with that.  My point is simply that, since they don't have to follow them under the law, they are adopting the views of their clergy, whether they be good, bad or indifferent.  And one cannot hide behind the idea of 'obedience' if a certain view is wrong, because such obedience does not exist, nor is it required.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #961 on: January 03, 2018, 04:25:19 AM »
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  • Well, the differences do not matter FOR THE MOST PART in the practical order.

    Now, with regard to R&R (of the traditional variety), however, they consider themselves bound to submit to and obey any orthodox teachings and legitimate commands of the Pope and the hierarchy.  Consequently, they are supposed to be in the business of ascertaining what these things are.  Most, however, do no such thing and, for all intents and purposes, simply ignore the current hierarchy.

    We have no other choice in the matter other than to simply ignore the hierarchy's heretical teachings - the hierarchy themselves are responsible for that, they are the ones that saw to it that that's the rule, we played no active part in that decision, that decision was entirely their own. There is a line in the sand that we did not put there, but it's there and we may not cross over it.

    To say we are supposed to be in the business of ascertaining what is truth and sin and what is not, as if we are incapable to discern as much, or as if this has never been our responsibility, is the same liberal thinking that helped assist the masses into abandoning the true faith for the new faith in the first place.

    Fr. Wathen explains it this way:

    "....What I find most intriguing about the heresy of our modern day my dear people, is that there is the consistent confusion between truth or doctrine, and the requirement of authority. If that sounds obscure let me make it more clear.

    Most people in the church today do not care that they are heretics. In fact if you point out certain idea to them as being heretical, they consider the whole thing irrelevant to such an extent that they can hardly be bothered with it. And if you point out, for instance, certain expressions in people's utterances or in Catholic, i.e. so called Catholic papers and books which are diametrically opposed to Catholic Doctrine and to traditional Catholic belief and practice, again they’re totally unimpressed, simply because they say; “Well, the only thing we have to worry about, is doing what the priests and bishops and the pope tell us”.

    See what I mean? They are invoking authority to get by and to avoid the whole issue of their personal belief.

    This is why most people are now in heresy within the Church, not because they want to believe error, many of them really want to know the truth. I shouldn’t say that word 'really', what they *really* want is what they’ve got, that’s why they have it, that’s why they’ve chosen it, that’s why they fight for it, and its why they continue to absorb it, they cling to it and they love it. So I should not say that word 'really', but let us say that many people in the Church 'aspire', at least faintly to the truth - not so strongly, not so adamantly or tenaciously that they’d suffer for it, not so that they would fall out with their relatives and their friends on account of it, no so really that they would become such oddities as we have become for the sake of it, but they do hope that they can retain orthodoxy, at least within the pale of the Church, the problem is it is so much easier to follow the wolves in sheep’s clothing....."




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    Yet there are monumental theological consequences of the different positions that cannot be ignored.  R&R posit that the Magisterium Hierarchy and Unviersal Discipline of the Church can become so corrupt as to endanger the faith of any who submit to these things, and that individuals are empowered to decide what's what, what to accept and what to reject.  SVs, on the other hand, posit that individuals are empowered to make a determination of papal legitimacy based on their own private judgment.  Both these are incredibly grave errors that undermine the Catholic Magisterium.  That's really the battle taking place here.

    The reason R&R posit such things is because the fact is indisputable that the majority of the hierarchy and the hierarchy's universal discipline have become corrupt, it is indisputable because it is the truth, it is what happened, whats more, it is still happening, that's simply the way it is. It is an historic reality and it is a present reality that the hierarchy and their universal discipline have become so corrupt, that it does not merely endanger the faith of those who submit to them as you suggest, rather, it is a sacrilege to submit to the modernist teachings and universal discipline of today's hierarchy.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #962 on: January 05, 2018, 08:51:42 AM »
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  • Let's get this to 100 pages...by any means...

    Stubborn, I heard your dog was a wimp.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #963 on: January 05, 2018, 09:57:11 AM »
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  • The reason R&R posit such things is because the fact is indisputable that the majority of the hierarchy and the hierarchy's universal discipline have become corrupt, it is indisputable because it is the truth, it is what happened, whats more, it is still happening, that's simply the way it is. It is an historic reality and it is a present reality that the hierarchy and their universal discipline have become so corrupt, that it does not merely endanger the faith of those who submit to them as you suggest, rather, it is a sacrilege to submit to the modernist teachings and universal discipline of today's hierarchy.

    You have just completely rejected the indefectibility and holiness of the Church.  Congratulations for having become a heretic.  Based on this, I cannot even consider you a Catholic.  This is not only heresy; it's filthy blasphemy.  Get thee behind me, Satan.

    Here (above), my friends, is the danger posed by R&R to Catholic faith and why it must be completely rejected.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #964 on: January 05, 2018, 10:30:29 AM »
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    You have just completely rejected the indefectibility and holiness of the Church.  Congratulations for having become a heretic.
    Ok, to be fair, Stubborn gets his terms confused many times.  If he would've not used the term 'universal discipline' then his comments would have been ok, heresy wise.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #965 on: January 05, 2018, 10:51:10 AM »
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  • At this moment, six out of the nine forum members logged on are sedes (including sedewhatevers).
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #966 on: January 05, 2018, 10:53:51 AM »
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  • Ok, to be fair, Stubborn gets his terms confused many times.  If he would've not used the term 'universal discipline' then his comments would have been ok, heresy wise.
    I used the term "Hierarchy's universal discipline", not the Church's.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #967 on: January 05, 2018, 10:54:18 AM »
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  • You have just completely rejected the indefectibility and holiness of the Church.  Congratulations for having become a heretic.  Based on this, I cannot even consider you a Catholic.  This is not only heresy; it's filthy blasphemy.  Get thee behind me, Satan.

    Here (above), my friends, is the danger posed by R&R to Catholic faith and why it must be completely rejected.
    You are simply ignorant.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #968 on: January 05, 2018, 11:15:20 AM »
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  • At this moment, six out of the nine forum members logged on are sedes (including sedewhatevers).
    :laugh1: :laugh2:
    We're coming to get you Meg!   :ready-to-eat:

    Offline Meg

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #969 on: January 05, 2018, 11:18:21 AM »
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  • :laugh1: :laugh2:
    We're coming to get you Meg!   :ready-to-eat:

    Yeah, good luck with that, 2Varmint!

     :boxer:
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #970 on: January 05, 2018, 11:20:27 AM »
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  • Yeah, good luck with that, 2Varmint!

     :boxer:
    Aw, Meg...still your charitable self I see.  That's what rabid anti-sedevacantism/dogmatic sedeplenism does to a person.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #971 on: January 05, 2018, 11:23:56 AM »
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  • Ok, to be fair, Stubborn gets his terms confused many times.  If he would've not used the term 'universal discipline' then his comments would have been ok, heresy wise.

    No, more than that, he also referred the teachings of what he considers to be a legitimate Ecuмenical Council as endangering the faith and "sacrilegeous" to submit to.  If you're going to be R&R, you're much better off soft-pedaling opposition to V2 like Bishop Fellay does.  +Fellay has a much more Catholic attitude than Stubborn.

    When you say that both the Magisterium of the Pope and bishops, in an approved legitimate Ecuмenical Council, and the Universal Discipline promulgated by the Church not only endanger the faith but that it would be a "sacrilege" for Catholics to submit to it ... that's blasphemy of the first order and heresy at the same time.  Stubborn tries to snake out of this heresy and vile blasphemy by making a false distinction between hierarchy and Church, but it doesn't fly.  Said hierarchy TAUGHT these things to the Church in Ecuмenical Council and said hierarchy promulgated the universal disicpline in question.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #972 on: January 05, 2018, 11:24:08 AM »
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  • Aw, Meg...still your charitable self I see.  That's what rabid anti-sedevacantism/dogmatic sedeplenism does to a person.

    Aw, that's just so cute, 2Varmint.  :fryingpan:
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #973 on: January 05, 2018, 11:24:43 AM »
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  • :laugh1: :laugh2:
    We're coming to get you Meg!   :ready-to-eat:

    I guess that she doesn't include sedeplenism as a sedewhateverism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #974 on: January 05, 2018, 11:27:35 AM »
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