Author Topic: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?  (Read 27620 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
« Reply #1545 on: January 16, 2018, 03:37:09 PM »
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  • Paul VI's Constitution:


    (1) Authorizing the new missal
    ...there has grown and spread among the Christian people the liturgical renewal which, according to Pius XII, Our predecessor of venerable memory, seems to show the signs of God's providence in the present time, a salvific action of the Holy Spirit in His Church.(2) This renewal has also shown clearly that the formulas of the Roman Missal ought to be revised and enriched.

    Comment:  The new missal is authorized based on the 'liturgical renewal' which was started under Pius XII.  So, not authorized by Papal Authority, but by the authority of a dead pope.  Ok.  Makes total sense (sarcasm alert).

    The recent Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in promulgating the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, established the basis for the general revision of the Roman Missal:

    Comment:  The new missal is not authorized by papal authority.  Instead, V2 established "the basis" (i.e. argument) why the missal needed updating.  Still not any kind of authority is named which creates this missal, but only "the basis" for it being V2.  So not authorized by papal authority in any way.

    (2) who does this law apply to?
    Not mentioned.

    (3) What are the specifics of use & Penalties?
    We order that the prescriptions of this Constitution go into effect November 30th of this year, the first Sunday of Advent.

    Comment:  The only prescriptions are related to the new missal's contents and layout.  There are no rules governing its use.

    (4) Revoking of previous missals
    Not mentioned.

    (5) How long is this law in effect?
    Not mentioned.

    (6) Permissions of this law?
    Not mentioned.

    (7) Authority of this law?
    In conclusion, we wish to give the force of law to all that we have set forth concerning the new Roman Missal.

    Comment:  You can see that all that is authorized by Paul VI is a new missal.  His only reason for producing a new missal is because Pope Pius XII started a liturgical renewal and V2 gives a "basis" for why a new missal would be a good idea.  The new missal applies to no one, there is no allowance to use it, nor penalities for not using it.  The new law mentions nothing about Quo Primum being changed or replaced.

    Over half of the entire document explains the changes of the new missal, which Quo Primum didn't even address.  If you cut out the detailed summary of Paul's new missal, his law would be a few sentences long.



    The Roman Missal, promulgated in 1570 by Our predecessor, St. Pius V, by decree of the Council of Trent,(1) has been received by all as one of the numerous and admirable fruits which the holy Council has spread throughout the entire Church of Christ. For four centuries, not only has it furnished the priests of the Latin Rite with the norms for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice, but also the saintly heralds of the Gospel have carried it almost to the entire world. Furthermore, innumerable holy men have abundantly nourished their piety towards God by its readings from Sacred Scripture or by its prayers, whose general arrangement goes back, in essence, to St. Gregory the Great.

    (history lesson; no law present)

     Since that time there has grown and spread among the Christian people the liturgical renewal which, according to Pius XII, Our predecessor of venerable memory, seems to show the signs of God's providence in the present time, a salvific action of the Holy Spirit in His Church.(2) This renewal has also shown clearly that the formulas of the Roman Missal ought to be revised and enriched. The beginning of this renewal was the work of Our predecessor, this same Pius XII, in the restoration of the Paschal Vigil and of the Holy Week Rite,(3) which formed the first stage of updating the Roman Missal for the present-day mentality.

    (reasons for the new missal; no law present)

     The recent Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in promulgating the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, established the basis for the general revision of the Roman Missal: in declaring "both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify";(4) in ordering that "the rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, can be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful can be more easily accomplished";(5) in prescribing that "the treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more lavishly, so that richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God's Word";(6) in ordering, finally, that "a new rite for concelebration is to be drawn up and incorporated into the Pontifical and into the Roman Missal."(7)

    (reasons for the new missal from V2; no law present)

     One ought not to think, however, that this revision of the Roman Missal has been improvident. The progress that the liturgical sciences has accomplished in the last four centuries has, without a doubt, prepared the way. After the Council of Trent, the study "of ancient manuscripts of the Vatican library and of others gathered elsewhere," as Our predecessor, St. Pius V, indicates in the Apostolic Constitution Quo primum, has greatly helped for the revision of the Roman Missal. Since then, however, more ancient liturgical sources have been discovered and published and at the same time liturgical formulas of the Oriental Church have become better known. Many wish that the riches, both doctrinal and spiritual, might not be hidden in the darkness of the libraries, but on the contrary might be brought into the light to illumine and nourish the spirits and souls of Christians.
     Let us show now, in broad lines, the new composition of the Roman Missal....

    (more reasons for the new missal; no law present)

    (here are the changes of the new missal, blah, blah, blah)

    In conclusion, we wish to give the force of law to all that we have set forth concerning the new Roman Missal. In promulgating the official edition of the Roman Missal, Our predecessor, St. Pius V, presented it as an instrument of liturgical unity and as a witness to the purity of the worship the Church. While leaving room in the new Missal, according to the order of the Second Vatican Council, "for legitimate variations and adaptations,"(15) we hope nevertheless that the Missal will be received by the faithful as an instrument which bears witness to and which affirms the common unity of all. Thus, in the great diversity of languages, one unique prayer will rise as an acceptable offering to our Father in heaven, through our High-Priest Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit.

    (this law created a new missal, nothing else).

    We order that the prescriptions of this Constitution go into effect November 30th of this year, the first Sunday of Advent.

    (this constitution orders a new missal, that's it)

    We wish that these Our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by Our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation.

    (legal wording that is at the end of 99% legal documents.)

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690403_missale-romanum.html

    Online Bellator Dei

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1546 on: January 16, 2018, 03:58:41 PM »
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  • Paul VI's Constitution:


    (1) Authorizing the new missal
    ...there has grown and spread among the Christian people the liturgical renewal which, according to Pius XII, Our predecessor of venerable memory, seems to show the signs of God's providence in the present time, a salvific action of the Holy Spirit in His Church.(2) This renewal has also shown clearly that the formulas of the Roman Missal ought to be revised and enriched.

    Comment:  The new missal is authorized based on the 'liturgical renewal' which was started under Pius XII.  So, not authorized by Papal Authority, but by the authority of a dead pope.  Ok.  Makes total sense (sarcasm alert).

    Where do you come up with this kind of stuff man?  Where did you come up with the headings that you've attached to your post?  The (1) (2) (3), etc. crap?

    If Paul VI was a true pope, Quo Primum has been abrogated and Missale Romanum is the new law of the Church...period.  
    Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1547 on: January 16, 2018, 04:34:25 PM »
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  • Quote
    Where do you come up with this kind of stuff man?
    It's basic legal knowledge.  I'm not a lawyer but i've read plenty of contracts as part of my job and i've also read many legal documents of the Church.  Legal formulas are legal formulas and they are consistent, for both financial and church law.

    Quote
    Where did you come up with the headings that you've attached to your post?  The (1) (2) (3), etc. crap?
    Based on St Thomas' rules for a good and valid law. 

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1548 on: January 16, 2018, 08:46:28 PM »
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  • Meg, how could there have been "sedevacantists" at the false council?

    The sede vacante argument didn't even come up until AFTER the false council and AFTER Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer started pointing out all of the errors.

    Not to mention the fact that Archbishop Lefebvre himself questioned the legitimacy of Montini...
      
    I believe there was a US priest who publicly declared his belief that J23 was a heretical usurper in 1962 or thereabouts.  Shuckardt went sv in 1967.  And if I’m not mistaken sv was an undercurrent of Archbishop Lefebvre’s group from the beginning in 1969-70.  The sv position predates the r&r position.  But the archbishop was an excellent organizer going back to his days as a missionary bishop.  So people got behind him without worrying too much about theological arguments.  When the sspx developed the r&r position over time the people attached to them went along with it.  And gradually the positions became more conflicting and antagonistic to the point that some people have become very emotionally attached to one argument or another.  I believe that if this crisis is resolved before the end of the world, it may very well be resolved without ever definitively resolving the question of the legitimacy of the various theological positions.  The crisis isn’t really about a particular response but about the papacy.  We all agree that the V2 popes are not Catholic.  So any resolution will have to deal with that.  But the resolution doesn’t necessarily have to condemn any particular response (r&r, sv, sp, sd, etc).  It could just side-step that question entirely.  If we got a Catholic pope with indubitably valid orders we probably aren’t going to worry too much about who took the correct position.

    Offline Hermenegild

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1549 on: January 16, 2018, 09:03:27 PM »
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  • We all agree that the V2 popes are not Catholic.
    Do you include John XXIII on that list?


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1550 on: January 16, 2018, 09:10:39 PM »
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  • Do you include John XXIII on that list?
    Yes, J23 suppressed the cult of St Philomena as well as rehabilitated the new theology heretics.  He approved the scrapping of Catholic schemas in favor of the heretical schemas of the new theology proponents.  He was known to be suspect of heresy by the Holy Office. And obviously something very nefarious happened at the 1958 conclave.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1551 on: January 16, 2018, 10:13:12 PM »
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  • Excellent points, Clemons!  I agree, some of these points may never be cleared up or will be in the future, and we'll all be dead - so we'll hopefully be asking St Peter in heaven.  

    In any case, let's all remember to have charity!  We agree on the important points, which is to safeguard the mass, sacraments and our families.  All else is theory, and no one made it to heaven on theory alone!

    In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas

    In necessary things, unity.  In doubtful things, liberty.  In all things, charity.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1552 on: January 17, 2018, 12:26:15 AM »
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  • Where do you come up with this kind of stuff man?  Where did you come up with the headings that you've attached to your post?  The (1) (2) (3), etc. crap?

    I do have to admit that Pax Vobis possesses a rapid and great imagination!
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1553 on: January 17, 2018, 12:55:06 AM »
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  • Read slowly....


    Clearly, if Montini was a true pope, Quo Primum was, without a doubt abrogated.  


    Absolutely! There is no doubt about this. The clause is very explicit:  "Notwithstanding preceding Apostolic constitutions and ordinances… and whatever laws and customs there be to the contrary.".

    Quo Primum does not bind any of the successors of St. Peter, for no pope has an authority higher than another pope. If Paul VI was true pope, then Quo Primum is abrogated. If Paul VI was indeed a legitimate successor of St. Peter, he was exercising his proper Papal authority over the Sacred Liturgy when introducing and approving the new rite, or "modifying those he judged to require modification" as Pope Pius XII stated in Mediator Dei.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1554 on: January 17, 2018, 01:43:02 AM »
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  • I never said that, nor did Pope Benedict, nor did Paul VI or any other pope.  Benedict confirmed what all trads suspected - that Quo Primum is still in effect.  Quo Primum FORBIDS UNDER PAIN OF SIN the use of any missal except Pius V's.  Ergo, the new mass legally exists, but cannot be used.
    If it is illicit/sinful to use the new mass, then it can't be protected by disciplinary infallibility, can it?  Only the true mass is protected by Disciplinary infallibility because only it is legal, moral and certainly valid.

    The Council of Trent, Canon 7 on the "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" teaches that:

    Quote
    "If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be anathema"

    These are bad news to those who reject the NOM altogether as an evil sinful rite while at the same time recognizing the legitimacy of the Roman Pontiff who promulgated it. The only way to get around this canon is to say that the Catholic Church did NOT promulgate this new rite nor does it use it, meaning that Paul VI was not a real pope. No one who acknowledges the legitimacy of the conciliar popes can hold this position without being guilty of holding a position which refutes itself.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Hermenegild

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1555 on: January 17, 2018, 01:53:22 AM »
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  • Do you include John XXIII on that list?
    So the fifty other Cardinals who "elected" Roncalli were all or at least two-thirds were evil Masonic/Modernist agents?


    Online An even Seven

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1556 on: January 17, 2018, 08:18:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Do you include John XXIII on that list?
    So the fifty other Cardinals who "elected" Roncalli were all or at least two-thirds were evil Masonic/Modernist agents?
    Are you asking yourself?

    Online An even Seven

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1557 on: January 17, 2018, 08:22:04 AM »
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  • The Council of Trent, Canon 7 on the "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" teaches that:

    These are bad news to those who reject the NOM altogether as an evil sinful rite while at the same time recognizing the legitimacy of the Roman Pontiff who promulgated it. The only way to get around this canon is to say that the Catholic Church did NOT promulgate this new rite nor does it use it, meaning that Paul VI was not a real pope. No one who acknowledges the legitimacy of the conciliar popes can hold this position without being guilty of holding a position which refutes itself.
    Great point. This is also why I think that it will actually matter what position you hold during this crisis. The reason is that the R&R position is rife with anathemas and condemnations. I understand that everybody is trying to do their best but there are some positions that a Catholic cannot hold.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1558 on: January 17, 2018, 08:38:24 AM »
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  • Yes, J23 suppressed the cult of St Philomena as well as rehabilitated the new theology heretics.  He approved the scrapping of Catholic schemas in favor of the heretical schemas of the new theology proponents.  He was known to be suspect of heresy by the Holy Office. And obviously something very nefarious happened at the 1958 conclave.

    Heck, there's very credible evidence that Roncalli was inducted into a Masonic lodge; he was always fraternizing with Communists.  Masonic newspapers around the world hailed the "election" of Roncalli.

    In several letters, including his first encyclical, Roncali referred to the Holy Trinity as a "Mysterious Force" ... which is a known Masonic term (look it up).

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/anti-pope-john-xxiii/#.Wl9bpqinGUk

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: How many sedes are logged on to the forum right now?
    « Reply #1559 on: January 17, 2018, 08:39:52 AM »
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  • The Council of Trent, Canon 7 on the "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" teaches that:

    These are bad news to those who reject the NOM altogether as an evil sinful rite while at the same time recognizing the legitimacy of the Roman Pontiff who promulgated it. The only way to get around this canon is to say that the Catholic Church did NOT promulgate this new rite nor does it use it, meaning that Paul VI was not a real pope. No one who acknowledges the legitimacy of the conciliar popes can hold this position without being guilty of holding a position which refutes itself.

    Yes, and notice this does not say "the rites that the Church has made obligatory", but rather "the rites that the Church USES".

     

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