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Author Topic: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?  (Read 2597 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2018, 11:12:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Theosist on May 01, 2018, 11:04:08 AM
    Let's clear this up, shall we:
    I do not claim that the See of Peter is vacant. I do not claim that Jorge Bergoglio is not Francis I and Pope.
    Therefore I am not, by definition, a Sedevacantist.

    Neither am I in material schism with my fellow Catholics.  I attend the Tridentine mass in London every Sunday as it has been celebrated by priests in communion with Rome without interruption through Vatican II, and I attend the Novus Ordo at the Oratory or St. James Spanish Place, which are centres of liturgical excellence regardless of the rite, on certain occasions or when the former is not available to me during the week.
    Kindly retract your calumnous accusation.
    I retract calling you a sede, I cannot recall any sede whoever went to the NO - and there is your first problem - you attend the novus ordo. I won't go into all the reasons to never attend that evil thing, suffice to say, it offends God greatly.

    As for the rest of your post, what I said still stands, you misunderstand V1's clear teaching. Try swearing off the NO for good, perhaps that will be a good start for you and open up a few doors to get you to start thinking clear.



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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #31 on: May 01, 2018, 11:18:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 01, 2018, 11:12:51 AM
    As for the rest of your post, what I said still stands, you misunderstand V1's clear teaching.

    :laugh1:
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #32 on: May 01, 2018, 11:37:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 01, 2018, 11:18:44 AM
    I do not consider +Lefebvre to have been a sedeplenist but a sededoubtist ... much like myself.
    :laugh2:
    Honestly, I don't know where you come up with these gut busters but stop, just stop.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #33 on: May 01, 2018, 11:39:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on April 29, 2018, 12:18:44 AM
    I think he was referring to situations where there were no options in regard to being able to go to the TLM. According to him the Novus Ordo is preferred to a high protestant service and an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

    Bp. Williamson told one woman at a conference that if it nourishes her faith, then she can attend a weekday Novus Ordo. She actually attended a TLM on Sundays. He was speaking to one woman's situation. I don't think he regrets saying it, but he certainly has received a lot of flack for it. He has explained that he was trying to get traditionalists to be more charitable to the Novus Ordo folks (or words to that effect), which I agree with. +W has also said that it would be a mistake to think that there is no faith left in the Novus Ordo.

    That being said, as most trads here know, the Novus Ordo is a human construct. It was designed by a committee put together by Annibale Bugnini at the request of Paul Vl. Bugnini wanted even a more drastic change in the Mass, but Paul Vl wouldn't have it. There were Protestants present on the committee, but I can't remember how much influence they had. This is just not how the Catholic Church works. The Mass, before that, whether the Roman Rite or the other approved rites (of which there are many, mainly in the eastern churches) was never put together by a committee. The Mass had always evolved organically from the beginning of the early Church.
    What the committee mainly wanted was for the Mass to be completely understood by the laity in the pews. EVERY word was to made so that the laity could hear it in their language. This has had certain effects, the main one being that much of the mystery is taken away. The altar at Mass is said to be the meeting place between Heaven and earth. But the mystery of this is lost when everything about the Novus Ordo is meant to be understood on an earthly level. There are also few quiet moments for contemplation and meditation. We are supposed to lift out hearts and minds toward God during Mass, with devotion, reverence, sorrow for sin, and thanksgiving, but that's not easy to do when the in the Novus Ordo someone is always talking at the altar (or the choir is singing).

    Holy Eucharist is also not treated with enough reverence at the Novus Ordo by the laity. That's the main problem that I've seen. Though there are devout souls who do attend the NO.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #34 on: May 01, 2018, 12:22:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 01, 2018, 11:37:49 AM
    :laugh2:
    Honestly, I don't know where you come up with these gut busters but stop, just stop.

    It's not my problem that you're too stupid to understand these things.  I've explained it several times already, and I simply can't dumb it down any more without making it unintelligible.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #35 on: May 01, 2018, 01:01:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 01, 2018, 12:22:08 PM
    It's not my problem that you're too stupid to understand these things.  I've explained it several times already, and I simply can't dumb it down any more without making it unintelligible.
    And to think, all I did was quote pope Pius IX.

    Does the power of doubt mean that you doubt he was a pope too?


    Poor lad said: "+Lefebvre to have been a sedeplenist but a sededoubtist ... much like myself." LOL
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #36 on: May 01, 2018, 01:21:54 PM »
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    • ...Unless I am grounded in faith, how can I make others firm in faith? It is certain that faith belongs especially to my office. The Lord publicly proclaimed it: ‘I’, he said, ‘have prayed for you Peter that your faith may not fail, and you, once being converted, must confirm your brothers’... For this reason the Faith of the Apostolic See has never failed even during turbulent times, but has remained whole and unharmed, so that the privilege of Peter continues to be unshaken ...

    That is Pope Innocent III's teaching on the doctrine in question, citing the very Gospel text that is cited by Vatican I on the unfailing faith of the Pope. He speaks of "I". He uses the first person: "Unless I am grounded in faith". And he quotes in regard to this, his personal faith, the words of the Lord, in relation to the unfailing "Faith of the Apostolic See".

    I don't care what umpteen theologians think about what Vatican I meant. I especially don't care what two lay theologians who only appeal to fallible authority to make their "arguments" think (that's called a logical fallacy where I come from). It wouldn't even matter if Robert Bellarmine, Francisco Suarez, Domingo Soto, John of St. Thomas, Cajetan etc., weren't of the opinion that it's impossible for a Pope to become a heretic (they were, despite what some want you think they thought), because the teaching of Pope Innocent III trumps all of these at the ontological level.


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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #37 on: May 01, 2018, 01:25:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Theosist on May 01, 2018, 01:21:54 PM
    ...Unless I am grounded in faith, how can I make others firm in faith? It is certain that faith belongs especially to my office. The Lord publicly proclaimed it: ‘I’, he said, ‘have prayed for you Peter that your faith may not fail, and you, once being converted, must confirm your brothers’... For this reason the Faith of the Apostolic See has never failed even during turbulent times, but has remained whole and unharmed, so that the privilege of Peter continues to be unshaken ...

    That is Pope Innocent III's teaching on the doctrine in question, citing the very Gospel text that is cited by Vatican I on the unfailing faith of the Pope. He speaks of "I". He uses the first person: "Unless I am grounded in faith". And he quotes in regard to this, his personal faith, the words of the Lord, in relation to the unfailing "Faith of the Apostolic See".

    I don't care what umpteen theologians think about what Vatican I meant. I especially don't care what two lay theologians who only appeal to fallible authority to make their "arguments" think (that's called a logical fallacy where I come from). It wouldn't even matter if Robert Bellarmine, Francisco Suarez, Domingo Soto, John of St. Thomas, Cajetan etc., weren't of the opinion that it's impossible for a Pope to become a heretic (they were, despite what some want you think they thought), because the teaching of Pope Innocent III trumps all of these at the ontological level.
    Is this why you go to the novus ordo service?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #38 on: May 01, 2018, 01:28:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 01, 2018, 01:01:22 PM
    And to think, all I did was quote pope Pius IX.

    Does the power of doubt mean that you doubt he was a pope too?


    Poor lad said: "+Lefebvre to have been a sedeplenist but a sededoubtist ... much like myself." LOL

    I notice that Ladislaus is avoiding answering your question about whether or not he doubts that Pius lX was pope.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #39 on: May 01, 2018, 03:23:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Theosist on May 01, 2018, 02:47:19 AM

    In your world the Church, the idefectible Church, needs to protect her liturgy from herself: not from rogue priests and rebellious ordinaries, but from the no less than successor of Peter and the bishops in union with him.

    One is left scratching ones head over how absurd that is.

    Wrong analysis, fruity. It's called protecting the liturgy from infiltrators posing as "Catholic" who sought/seek to attain the highest levels of the Church. Pope St. Pius X expounded on this imminent threat during his papacy. Alas, Vatican II and the new order "mass" is the result of the infiltration that eclipsed the true Church and Mass.
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    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)
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