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Author Topic: How do we prove Vatican II is irreconcilable?  (Read 210 times)

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Offline Iacobi I

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How do we prove Vatican II is irreconcilable?
« on: March 26, 2020, 09:11:41 AM »
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  • The above question is one that gets me, they are so many "trads" who say the problem with Vatican II is not Vatican II but it being interpreted outside of Tradition. I am quite new to the Trad movement and it seems to make sense to me in light of the crisis today that Vatican II has doctrinal errors that cannot be reconciled with Tradition/Catholic doctrine. I got most of my views from reading Bishop Lefebvre's "An Open Letter to Confused Catholics" and listening to Fr Hesse conferences on YouTube. 

    I really, however, would like anyone to show me clearly the doctrinal errors of VII that are totally non-catholic. Also if any of you have any recommended books on the subject that would be great.  

    God Bless. 


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: How do we prove Vatican II is irreconcilable?
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 10:43:27 AM »
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  • Iacobi,

    It is a contested issue, even among traditionalists, if Vatican II is, in and of itself, heretical.  You can find literature supporting both sides of the debate. 
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    I realize this is of course frustrating, because it seems like there is a big difference between the council itself being heretical and its interpretation being heretical.
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    However, I submit that while there is a theological difference, that question needn't be answered in order for us to, at the very least, know what to do.  For, the Church does not just teach that she is infallible in solemn session, but that she is infallible in her ordinary magisterium, which is the day to day teaching activities of the bishops and the pope in union with each other.  And if there is anything that everyone agrees on, it's that you can certainly not trust that the episcopate in its entirety (i.e., the Novus Ordo hierarchs, on the hypothesis that they and they alone are corporately the hierarchy of the Catholic Church) to teach and witness the orthodox, apostolic, Catholic faith.  In fact, what you find is that the way they interpret Vatican II is extremely problematic and in many cases heretical.  And on those grounds alone we can be assured that regardless of the Council's intrinsic status, we should certainly not submit to those unorthodox teachings, nor to the impious liturgy they imposed on us.
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    One of the main reasons I say this is that there are theological problems with stating something like "The docuмents of Vatican II are themselves boldly or obviously heretical."  For, these docuмents were signed by what certainly seem like a moral unanimity of the world's bishops, and although the bishops are not infallible as a body unless there is a pope, that doesn't mean they're free to put their name to obvious, technical heresy.  They leave the Church if/when they do that, which creates far more problems than it solves.  So, I think it is OK for someone to await additional information and remain agnostic on the question of "Is Vatican II heretical in the strict sense?" because the information and reality before us shows that whatever Vatican II is or isn't, we can't trust what our ostensible leaders say it is.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: How do we prove Vatican II is irreconcilable?
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 10:56:15 AM »
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  • This isn't a logical or theological argument, but ask yourself this:

    IF V2 were perfectly orthodox (but flawed?  huh?), how does it even begin to make sense that what followed in its wake has been unmitigated heresy, destruction, loss of Faith for hundreds of millions, endless scandal and confusion?

    If it is true (and it is) that a cause must be proportionate to the effect it produces, claiming V2 has just been misinterpreted borders on the height of absurdity.

    If you want to read a bombshell from the early 70s, find Liber accusationis in Paulum Sextum by the Abbe de Nantes.  It shows you how insane things were and how Paul VI was clearly a conscious destroyer on a scale hard to fathom.  And all these jokers are supposedly Blesseds and/or Saints?  What NONSENSE.

    I can recommend more than you can read in a year, but I don't want to overload you.  Just dig a little deeper one step at a time and pray your Rosary.  Please pray for me, as I shall for you.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Re: How do we prove Vatican II is irreconcilable?
    « Reply #3 on: March 26, 2020, 11:05:03 AM »
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  • I remember in 1966 I decided to attend a class on Vatican 2 in which we used the Abbot English edition.
    A very liberal and leftist priest was the instructor.
    I remember his very first introduction: Forget what those good Nuns taught you in Bible and Catechism
    Class. We are starting all over.
    He implied that Vatican II is replacing the Church that I grew up in.
    I did not return to any more classes.

    Offline Iacobi I

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    Re: How do we prove Vatican II is irreconcilable?
    « Reply #4 on: March 26, 2020, 03:42:09 PM »
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  • This isn't a logical or theological argument, but ask yourself this:

    IF V2 were perfectly orthodox (but flawed?  huh?), how does it even begin to make sense that what followed in its wake has been unmitigated heresy, destruction, loss of Faith for hundreds of millions, endless scandal and confusion?

    If it is true (and it is) that a cause must be proportionate to the effect it produces, claiming V2 has just been misinterpreted borders on the height of absurdity.

    I can recommend more than you can read in a year, but I don't want to overload you.  Just dig a little deeper one step at a time and pray your Rosary.  Please pray for me, as I shall for you.
    This is exactly what I have in my mind about the council... How can an orthodox text not produce and orthodox effect?
     Additionally, the above response is also great and I cannot tell you all how grateful I am for the help on this subject.  
    I heard of the book "The Rhine Flows into the Tiber" on the council, is it a good source on the issue?
    I definitely will pray for you all. 
    AVE MARIA! 15 Decades a day!