Author Topic: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?  (Read 4334 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2021, 07:48:20 AM »
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  • CM, I think that ++Lefebvre would agree with you.

    "Now I don't know if the time has come to say that the pope(Vatican II Pope) is a heretic. I don't know if it is the time to say that. You know, for some time many people, the sede-vacantists, have been saying "there is no more pope," but I think that for me it was not yet the time to say that, because it was not sure, it was not evident, it was very difficult to say that the Pope is a heretic, the Pope is apostate. But I recognize that slowly, very slowly, by the deeds and acts of the pope himself we begin to be very anxious. I am not inventing the situation; I do not want it. I would gladly give my life to bring it to an end, but this is the situation we face, unfolding before our eyes like a film in the cinema. I don't think it has ever happened in the history of the Church, the man seated in the chair of Peter partaking in the worship of false gods. What conclusion must we draw in a few months if we are confronted by these repeated acts of partaking in false worship? I don't know. I wonder. But I think the Pope can do nothing worse than call together a meeting of all religions, when we know there is only one true religion and all other religions belong to the devil. So perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the Pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don't wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a pope to be publicly and formally heretical. Our Lord has promised to be with him, to keep his faith, to keep him in the Faith -- how can he at the same time be a public heretic and virtually apostatize? So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not the pope."


    --Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (1905-1991), "The Archbishop Speaks: Talks given by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on March 30 and April 18, 1986," The Angelus, July 1, 1986 (IX:7, pp. 3-4)

    Notice that Archbishop Lefebvre isn't making a statement of fact. He is asking questions, and he says that.... "I don't know. I wonder." He also says that we MAY be obliged to believe that this pope is not the pope. 

    Unlike the Sedes, who of course believe that they have all of the answers, and try to force them on everyone else.
    "There is no religion higher than my own opinion."

    ~ Traditional Catholics

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #136 on: October 14, 2021, 07:54:58 AM »
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  • Notice that Archbishop Lefebvre isn't making a statement of fact. He is asking questions, and he says that.... "I don't know. I wonder." He also says that we MAY be obliged to believe that this pope is not the pope.

    Unlike the Sedes, who of course believe that they have all of the answers, and try to force them on everyone else.

    No sedes except for the dogmatic type try to "force" their opinion on everyone.  What the more moderate sedes object to are the rise of the dogmatic R&R who try to do exactly the same thing.  This quote from +Lefebvre simply demonstrates that he was not dogmatic R&R.  So it basically has the opposite implications of what you claim.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #137 on: October 14, 2021, 07:58:38 AM »
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  • No sedes except for the dogmatic type try to "force" their opinion on everyone.  What the more moderate sedes object to are the rise of the dogmatic R&R who try to do exactly the same thing.  This quote from +Lefebvre simply demonstrates that he was not dogmatic R&R.  So it basically has the opposite implications of what you claim.

    It shows that he knew that he didn't have the answers. Unlike all of you sedes. 
    "There is no religion higher than my own opinion."

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #138 on: October 14, 2021, 08:12:07 AM »
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  • No sedes except for the dogmatic type try to "force" their opinion on everyone.  What the more moderate sedes object to are the rise of the dogmatic R&R who try to do exactly the same thing.  This quote from +Lefebvre simply demonstrates that he was not dogmatic R&R.  So it basically has the opposite implications of what you claim.

    I’m not sure it admits he was not dogmatic R&R.

    I do accept it evinces he was not dogmatic R&R on those few particular occasions.

    But whether that doubt/possibility persisted in the mind of Lefebvre as his “real position,” I think is open to question from both sides:

    R&R can say, “Yes, he said those things on a couple occasions, but look what he said/did against sedes in between and after those quotes.”

    Sedevacantists can say, “No, the long time between pro-sede utterances evinces he held that position throughout the years, and his anti-sede actions were merely on the practical order for the sake of unity ad infra.”

    Unfortunately, Lefebvre is dead, and consequently, given the lack of resources of him discussing the issue, the matter is open to conjecture.

    Its because of that leeway that I am less dogmatic in the last couple years regarding what Lefebvre’s true position was, than I am regarding sedevacantism generally (which is based mostly on other difficulties associated with that position generally, but that’s another can of worms).
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #139 on: October 14, 2021, 08:16:52 AM »
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  • I’m not sure it admits he was not dogmatic R&R.

    I do accept it evinces he was not dogmatic R&R on those few particular occasions.

    But whether that doubt/possibility persisted in the mind of Lefebvre as his “real position,” I think is open to question from both sides:

    R&R can say, “Yes, he said those things on a couple occasions, but look what he said/did against sedes in between and after those quotes.”

    Sedevacantists can say, “No, the long time between pro-sede utterances evinces he held that position throughout the years, and his anti-sede actions were merely on the practical order for the sake of unity as infra.”

    Undortunalely, Lefebvre is dead, and consequently, given the lack of resources of him discussing the issue, the matter is open to conjecture.

    Its because of that leeway that I am less dogmatic in the last couple years regarding what Lefebvre’s true position was, than I am regarding sedevacantism generally (which is based mostly on other difficulties associated with that position generally, but that’s another can of worms).

    Yes, in a way, it's irrelevant, since the Archbishop is no longer with us in body.  I think it's a mistake to try to keep arguing from Archbishop Lefebvre as if he were a rule of faith or something, as if the words of +Lefebvre are a new Scripture and we have to "interpret" it.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #140 on: October 14, 2021, 08:26:08 AM »
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  • Yes, in a way, it's irrelevant, since the Archbishop is no longer with us in body.  I think it's a mistake to try to keep arguing from Archbishop Lefebvre as if he were a rule of faith or something, as if the words of +Lefebvre are a new Scripture and we have to "interpret" it.

    Does this mean that you will no longer try to make +ABL out to be a sedevacantist? Because you have done so many times in the past on this forum. 
    "There is no religion higher than my own opinion."

    ~ Traditional Catholics

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #141 on: October 14, 2021, 08:36:24 AM »
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  • Notice that Archbishop Lefebvre isn't making a statement of fact. He is asking questions, and he says that.... "I don't know. I wonder." He also says that we MAY be obliged to believe that this pope is not the pope.

    Unlike the Sedes, who of course believe that they have all of the answers, and try to force them on everyone else.
    Says the ANTIsedevacantist, R&R dogmatist…..
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #142 on: October 14, 2021, 08:44:42 AM »
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  • Says the ANTIsedevacantist, R&R dogmatist…..

    Actually, I'm not dogmatic about the Resistance. I simply believe that it's the best explanation for the Crisis. I admit that I could be wrong. Do you admit that you could be wrong about your sedevacantism?

    And I'm fine with anyone holding the Sede position. Thomas Cardinal Cajetan wrote that we should have a certain amount of sympathy for those those who believe that the Chair of Peter is empty. But he also said that we should be wary of the possibility of them going into schism. I have a problem with Sedes trying to force their opinion on everyone else.
    "There is no religion higher than my own opinion."

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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #143 on: October 14, 2021, 11:15:38 AM »
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  • It shows that he knew that he didn't have the answers. Unlike all of you sedes.
    Sede-anything just posits at the very least there is a possibility of the Chair being empty or there being impaired teaching ability etc. None of these things, no matter what the Sedewhatever is saying, are answers (prescriptions of aughts) but descriptions (showing what IS) of reality. The biggest problem with straight Sedevacantism is it ISN'T prescriptive!
    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #144 on: October 14, 2021, 11:36:55 AM »
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  • Actually, I'm not dogmatic about the Resistance. I simply believe that it's the best explanation for the Crisis. I admit that I could be wrong. Do you admit that you could be wrong about your sedevacantism?

    And I'm fine with anyone holding the Sede position. Thomas Cardinal Cajetan wrote that we should have a certain amount of sympathy for those those who believe that the Chair of Peter is empty. But he also said that we should be wary of the possibility of them going into schism. I have a problem with Sedes trying to force their opinion on everyone else.
    Fair enough. Ok, I’m as certain that Bergoglio is not a true pope as rain is wet. It’s impossible for an apostate to be the head of the Catholic Church.

    Now, what makes me non dogmatic with regard to my position is that I understand how others may be reluctant to embrace the position out of fear of becoming a schismatic. I believe that they are absolutely mistaken, but it’s understandable. Where it gets hairy, as time goes by and the Bergoglian heresies become more profound, the excuses have less merit.

    Remember, an interregnum of 50 or 60 years has never been thought of as an impossibility by any theologian that I’m aware of, but we do have at least one theologian (O’Reilly) who did speculate that such a thing could occur.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #145 on: October 14, 2021, 12:19:48 PM »
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  • Now, what makes me non dogmatic with regard to my position is that I understand how others may be reluctant to embrace the position out of fear of becoming a schismatic. I believe that they are absolutely mistaken, but it’s understandable. Where it gets hairy, as time goes by and the Bergoglian heresies become more profound, the excuses have less merit.

    It's not so much that I have fears about becoming a schismatic by becoming a sedevacantist. It's not a fear-based thing. I don't need to be sedevacantist in order to keep my Faith, but I understand if others do. 
    "There is no religion higher than my own opinion."

    ~ Traditional Catholics


    Offline Meg

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #146 on: October 14, 2021, 01:30:45 PM »
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  • Oh yes there is!  If the history of the Jews has taught us anything, it's taught us that we must appease God's wrath by genuinely repenting en masse..... and this time the numbers are higher than ever

    Well said.
    "There is no religion higher than my own opinion."

    ~ Traditional Catholics

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #147 on: October 15, 2021, 11:06:05 AM »
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  • I notice the Sedes always neglect to mention that Archbishop Lefebvre, being the Good Theologian that he was, clearly distinguished "Single-Pope-Sedevacantism" from "Decades-Long-Sedevacantism". Notice that H.E. said clearly here that "decades long sedevacantism" is impossible because of the Doctrine of the Church's Visibility: "Does not the exclusion of the cardinals of over eighty years of ages, and the secret meetings which preceded and prepared the last two Conclaves, render them invalid? Invalid: no, that is saying too much. Doubtful at the time: perhaps. But in any case, the subsequent unanimous acceptance of the election by the Cardinals and the Roman clergy suffices to validate it. That is the teaching of the theologians.
    The visibility of the Church is too necessary to its existence for it to be possible that God would allow that visibility to disappear for decades. The reasoning of those who deny that we have a Pope puts the Church in an inextricable situation. Who will tell us who the future Pope is to be? How, as there are no Cardinals, is he to be chosen? This spirit is a schismatical one for at least the majority of those who attach themselves to certainly schismatical sects like Palmar de Troya, the Eglise Latine de Toulouse, and others.
    Our Fraternity absolutely refuses to enter into such reasonings.
    We wish to remain attached to Rome and to the Successor of Peter, while refusing his Liberalism through fidelity to his predecessors. We are not afraid to speak to him, respectfully but firmly, as did St. Paul with St. Peter.
    And so, far from refusing to pray for the Pope, we redouble our prayers and supplications that the Holy Ghost will grant him light and strength in his affirmations and defense of the Faith." 

    https://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_two/Chapter_40.htm

    Archbishop Lefebvre, over the course of many of his writings, mentioned all the issues: (1) Visibility (2) Apostolicity (3) Jurisdiction (4) Unanimous/Universal Acceptance (5) Perpetual Succession etc that refute the 63+ year Sedevacantist heresy.

    If one wants to insist that Pope Francis is not the Pope, one should at least recognize that Pope Benedict XVI and thus one only has to deal with a 8 year vacancy. That position would still be defeated by Universal Acceptance, but at least the Apostolicity/Jurisdiction/Perpetual Petrine Succession/Visibility etc etc doctrines and dogmas wouldn't be affected by it.

    Perpetual Sedevacantism is clearly impossible. More and more Catholics, including those formerly attracted by this lying novelty, are coming to realize that. I hope at least by 2028 my sedevacantist friends will realize they were mistaken here.

    God Bless.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #148 on: October 15, 2021, 12:13:38 PM »
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  • And you dogmatic R&R types always neglect to mention that Archbishop Lefebvre clearly considered sedevacantism to be a possibility, thereby rejecting your assertion that the legitimacy of the V2 popes was dogmatic fact.  "Dogmatic" precludes the possibility of the contrary being true.  And so what?  People can disagree with Archbishop Lefebvre on some points (as you yourself do); Archbishop Lefebvre was a great man, but he was no infallible theological rule as a lot of people try to pretend.  It's absolutely useless and a waste of time to argue about what Archbishop Lefebvre thought about something.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: How do R&R adherents answer this objection?
    « Reply #149 on: October 15, 2021, 01:42:38 PM »
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  • And you dogmatic R&R types always neglect to mention that Archbishop Lefebvre clearly considered sedevacantism to be a possibility, thereby rejecting your assertion that the legitimacy of the V2 popes was dogmatic fact.  "Dogmatic" precludes the possibility of the contrary being true.  And so what?  People can disagree with Archbishop Lefebvre on some points (as you yourself do); Archbishop Lefebvre was a great man, but he was no infallible theological rule as a lot of people try to pretend.  It's absolutely useless and a waste of time to argue about what Archbishop Lefebvre thought about something.

    You consider XS dogmatic R&R?

    I always just considered him “dogmatic recognize, and resist where permitted,”
    (which is basically just recognize period, albeit in a camouflaged way).

    I guess I’d need to read/hear your definition of dogmatic R&R again.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


     

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