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Offline Matthew

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Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
« on: February 06, 2010, 04:44:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jamie


    matthew: you really need to consider banning fkpagnanelli, and the other sedes.  It does your site no service to have them posting here.  If you are not a sede you should recognise that many of the threads they start are extremely insulting to Catholics - threads such as this one "Antipope Benedict XV: Inter Soldalicia".

    The fact that you allow it (albeit in only one area of the site) suggests that you are leaning in the direction of sedeism yourself.  You have some advertising here and are obviously making a little cash off the site - but you need to realise that keeping the sedes here to cause controversy may be giving you a little extra revenue, but the people that leave because of them are revenue generators too.

    Banning the sedes will ultimately raise more funds and will make the site more pleasant.  Don't let financial benefits blind you to the insults our Holy Church is suffering at the hands of these bewildered few.  Are you comfortable with the idea that people with little grasp of the faith might read the arguments of the sedes here and reject Christ's Church in favor of sedevacantism?  Is that worth the few bucks you make from the site?

    Matthew, you need to ban all sede talk here.  They are dominating the site because you are allowing them to do so in order to make a few bucks.

    Having said that, if you are a sede but are pretending not to be (which is morally wrong), have the decency to tell people publicly that this is a site which supports the sede point of view.


    A few points:

    1. When you said "a few bucks", you spoke the literal truth instead of the figurative truth; all I make is a few (as in, single digit) dollars a month. Not even enough to pay the average webhosting fee of $10/month. Fortunately, a friend lets me host this site on his account, so it doesn't cost me anything.

    So no, I'm not doing anything on CathInfo "for the money". Even Judas wouldn't sell Our Lord for the price of a hamburger, so rest assured that neither will I!

    2. I'm not a sedevacantist. I hold the SSPX position.

    3. What you've noticed is an influx of home-aloners into CathInfo -- many of whom would also deserve the terms anti-social, nutjob, whacko, insane, etc. The home-aloner represents the most extreme end of the "Catholic" scale -- and, as others have sagely pointed out, a sort of "reductio ad absurdam" of sedevacantism itself. If it is permissible for Joe to deny the papacy of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI on the grounds of Joe's own personal judgement, why can't Jack deny Pius XII? Why can't John deny Pius XI, Leo XIII, or even St. Pius X? Fundamentally it's the same action. Where does one draw the line? I see now why most traditional Catholic fora don't allow Sedevacantists at all. How do you sort the reasonable from the insane? Must I give a questionnaire upon registering? Require that a user assent to a certain list of Popes as being legitimate?

    I allow normal sedevacantists here, if they are NOT possessed by the issue, and can talk about something else. I can understand a person coming to a different conclusion than myself vis-a-vis this Church Crisis, because -- write this down, kids -- there is no perfect solution to the current Crisis, short of the Pope and hierarchy beginning to build up the Church again, rather than tearing it down. The SSPX position seems to be the most prudent and risk-free, but even that position is a far cry from a perfect solution. Who knows how many years the Faith could survive with only the SSPX. After all, Christ didn't promise anything to the SSPX -- just to Peter and the Catholic Church in general. When the shepherd is struck, the sheep will be scattered. Just like if you cut a man he will bleed. The Protestants have no unity, because they have no principle of unity. Catholics have a Pope.

    If someone focuses on Obedience, they might stick to the Novus Ordo or Indult. If they focus on prudence, they might assist at an SSPX Mass. If they focus on Papal Infallibility and Church indefectibility, they may see Sedevacantism as the answer. It's not that simple, though, as SSPX supporters consider that they are being obedient to tradition and to every past Pope. But in 2010 there is no one perfect solution that satisfies all a Catholic's needs. Who am I to say, "Follow me, or else!" Who am I, the pope?

    CathInfo's mission statement -- my intention -- is to provide a forum for traditional Catholics of all backgrounds (and I assure you, there are as many types as there are traditional Catholics!) to discuss important issues, support each other, pray for each other, and provide the social contact that all humans crave. Better to talk with fellow Catholics than random pagans! I want to do as little moderating as possible, since it's hard to have heated discussions when a board is heavy-handed in its moderating. Heated discussions are the result of important events going down. When freemasonic ideas infiltrate the Church hierarchy, that's big news! That's going to cause some consternation, even anger, among Catholics as they try to figure out what they should do. This is not a game. Each man and woman here is fervent about his position, because if he's wrong, his very soul is at stake!

    As for the substance of your request, I am trying to figure out what to do.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #1 on: February 06, 2010, 04:49:50 PM »
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  • In short, I am bothered by the home-aloners the way many Catholics are bothered by sedevacantists.

    You have sedevacantism -- "The last 5 popes weren't legitimate, but who knows when/if we'll every have another pope. In the meantime, I'll attend Mass at my SSPV, CMRI, or independent chapel."

    Then you have conclavists - "The last __ popes weren't popes at all, which is why these 3 bishops over here got together and elected us a new Pope! Viva il Papa! Long live Pope Bubba"

    But it doesn't end there -- some are even more extreme.

    Some say that there are no valid priests, or that they number in the single digits. Others say that a lack of opposition to a non-dogmatic issue -- NFP, for example -- results in a loss of membership in the Church, and subsequent loss of Holy Orders if they were a priest.

    These (and other) Catholics(?) claim that one must stay home on Sunday to keep the Faith -- nevermind that it takes a miracle of grace to do so for any length of time. When you're counting on God to work a miracle, you better be DARN SURE OF YOURSELF. Not "FULL of yourself", I said "SURE of yourself".

    One should not tempt God.

    On a human level, you (nevermind your children) will not keep the Faith in a home-alone context. Such "Catholicism" is worse than a cult. At least a cult involves several families.

    Children would run away from such "Catholicism" as fast as their feet would carry them, as soon as they are old enough to support themselves.
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    Offline Raoul76

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #2 on: February 06, 2010, 08:55:53 PM »
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  • Quote
    "...there is no perfect solution to the current Crisis, short of the Pope and hierarchy beginning to build up the Church again, rather than tearing it down."


    That can't happen because they don't have the faith.  

    That is why what should have been done long ago is for all traditional bishops to reject Paul VI or JPII on the basis of cuм Ex Apostolatus and elect a real Pope.  But considering the bulk of "traditional" bishops are in SSPX, leaving only a ragtag handful as sede bishops, who are moreover extremely liberal on certain matters, there would be no way to elect a Pope that way without looking foolish.

    God gave all of us a lot of time to do the right thing, to work through the problems on our own.  Since almost no one cared to do so, and they allowed themselves to be led like sheep to slaughter, He will probably step in and either end the world or send the Chastisement.  The Chastisement, I believe, would serve as a slap in the face.  There will be no NFP or EENS heresy after that.  People will no longer tolerate the lies that they do now, after seeing what those lies reaped.

    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #3 on: February 06, 2010, 08:58:32 PM »
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  • Matthew said
    Quote
    "Some say that there are no valid priests, or that they number in the single digits. Others say that a lack of opposition to a non-dogmatic issue -- NFP, for example -- results in a loss of membership in the Church, and subsequent loss of Holy Orders if they were a priest."


    I hope you're not referring to me.  I never said that those who support NFP have lost membership in the Church.  I don't really make statements like that.  I just don't want to participate in their error IN CASE it's a heresy, as seems probable -- not definite -- to me.  But on top of that there is also the EENS heresy which is my primary reason to be a home-aloner at this point.  

    Matthew said:
    Quote
    On a human level, you (nevermind your children) will not keep the Faith in a home-alone context. Such "Catholicism" is worse than a cult. At least a cult involves several families.

    Children would run away from such "Catholicism" as fast as their feet would carry them, as soon as they are old enough to support themselves."


    I see it as the exact opposite.  If I were growing up in SSPX and saw pictures of JPII and Ratzinger all over, that would endanger my faith.  Such men as permit this can not possibly be inspiring examples of Church leadership.  

    Where the faith is whole, where it is rock-solid, even if it's in a private home, that is the inspiration.  Heretics are dangers to the faith.  They water it down, and once it is watered down, it's easy to lose.  Going through the motions, having the Mass on Sunday, seeing the priest in the cassock, means nothing if the faith isn't there.  It's all show-and-tell.  

    The argument you are using, Matthew, kept people in Novus Ordo for a long time.  What is better, to go to a Waikiki Hula Mass or to stay home?  What is more likely to keep your reverence for God intact?  If you are right, why have so many people simply lost the Catholic faith altogether thinking that Vatican II was it?  Was going to that sacrilegious "Mass" on Sunday the best way to raise their children and keep them in the Church?  This to me completely underestimates children, as well as their parents:  "Well, it's the best we've got, so let's just go to this completely un-Catholic orgy of evil that calls itself Catholic."

    I don't know about anyone else, but I can actually feel internally when there is no solid foundation, when the faith is watered-down and sloppy and heretical.  Some people like that but to me it's like sleeping on a soggy mattress, or a bent-in cot.  The dogmas are like a matrix holding the faith together; take one away and you all you have is a crumpled heap of Catholic-looking nothing.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline insidebaseball

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #4 on: February 06, 2010, 09:17:20 PM »
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  • I attend a sede chapel because it seems to be the safest place.  Our priest is an ex sspx and is very normal and  balanced.  I don't believe his sede position has become de fede, but he won't hide his opionon if he is asked.  I can't worry about what everyone else is doing.  I will have to answer to God about my own choices.  Most sede's at our parish are simply focusing on there own families Faith and spiritual life and are not trying to make enemies with other Catholics.  We all have free will from the Pope on down.  So what would be heresy to the most simple layman would also be heresy for the hierarchy.


    Offline Matthew

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #5 on: February 06, 2010, 09:44:14 PM »
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  • Now that's the kind of Sedevacantist I don't mind on CathInfo.

    I agree -- I have to worry about saving my own soul, plus helping my wife to save hers (we ARE bound by matrimony to help each other get to heaven) plus I have to train my children to pray, love and serve God, love the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints, etc.

    How would I ever have time to worry about the Pope's soul? All I can do is pray for him and the Church.

    Matthew
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #6 on: February 06, 2010, 09:51:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    I just don't want to participate in their error IN CASE it's a heresy, as seems probable -- not definite -- to me.  


    How is receiving sacraments from a priest "participating" in his error?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline CM

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #7 on: February 06, 2010, 10:13:56 PM »
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  • Offline MaterDominici

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 10:14:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    Ask St. Thomas Aquinas.


    Well, now that's a helpful answer. Could you at least give me a page number or something?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline CM

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 10:15:22 PM »
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  • Sorry, Materdominici.  I just put the link into it for you now.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #10 on: February 06, 2010, 10:18:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    Sorry, Materdominici.  I just put the link into it for you now.


    Thanks, but that's a little different. Raoul said he wasn't sure they were heretics, but possibly only in error. Do you keep yourself from the sacraments on a maybe?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


    Offline Matthew

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #11 on: February 06, 2010, 10:23:05 PM »
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  • Protestants privately interpret Scripture.

    CM privately interprets St. Thomas Aquinas and the Summa Theologica.

    For example, what would St. Thomas say if the ONLY PRIESTS LEFT ON EARTH were tainted thus, as you claim?


    Article 9. Whether it is permissible to receive communion from heretical, excommunicate, or sinful priests, and to hear mass said by them?

    Objection 1. It seems that one may lawfully receive Communion from heretical, excommunicate, or even sinful priests, and to hear mass said by them. Because, as Augustine says (Contra Petilian. iii), "we should not avoid God's sacraments, whether they be given by a good man or by a wicked one." But priests, even if they be sinful, or heretics, or excommunicate, perform a valid sacrament. Therefore it seems that one ought not to refrain from receiving Communion at their hands, or from hearing their mass.

    Objection 2. Further, Christ's true body is figurative of His mystical body, as was said above (Question 67, Article 2). But Christ's true body is consecrated by the priests mentioned above. Therefore it seems that whoever belongs to His mystical body can communicate in their sacrifices.

    Objection 3. Further, there are many sins graver than fornication. But it is not forbidden to hear the masses of priests who sin otherwise. Therefore, it ought not to be forbidden to hear the masses of priests guilty of this sin.

    On the contrary, The Canon says (Dist. 32): "Let no one hear the mass of a priest whom he knows without doubt to have a concubine." Moreover, Gregory says (Dial. ii.) that "the faithless father sent an Arian bishop to his son, for him to receive sacrilegiously the consecrated Communion at his hands. But, when the Arian bishop arrived, God's devoted servant rebuked him, as was right for him to do."

    I answer that, As was said above (5,7), heretical, schismatical, excommunicate, or even sinful priests, although they have the power to consecrate the Eucharist, yet they do not make a proper use of it; on the contrary, they sin by using it. But whoever communicates with another who is in sin, becomes a sharer in his sin. Hence we read in John's Second Canonical Epistle (11) that "He that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works." Consequently, it is not lawful to receive Communion from them, or to assist at their mass.

    Still there is a difference among the above, because heretics, schismatics, and excommunicates, have been forbidden, by the Church's sentence, to perform the Eucharistic rite. And therefore whoever hears their mass or receives the sacraments from them, commits sin. But not all who are sinners are debarred by the Church's sentence from using this power: and so, although suspended by the Divine sentence, yet they are not suspended in regard to others by any ecclesiastical sentence: consequently, until the Church's sentence is pronounced, it is lawful to receive Communion at their hands, and to hear their mass. Hence on 1 Corinthians 5:11, "with such a one not so much as to eat," Augustine's gloss runs thus: "In saying this he was unwilling for a man to be judged by his fellow man on arbitrary suspicion, or even by usurped extraordinary judgment, but rather by God's law, according to the Church's ordering, whether he confess of his own accord, or whether he be accused and convicted."

    Reply to Objection 1. By refusing to hear the masses of such priests, or to receive Communion from them, we are not shunning God's sacraments; on the contrary, by so doing we are giving them honor (hence a host consecrated by such priests is to be adored, and if it be reserved, it can be consumed by a lawful priest): but what we shun is the sin of the unworthy ministers.

    Reply to Objection 2. The unity of the mystical body is the fruit of the true body received. But those who receive or minister unworthily, are deprived of the fruit, as was said above (7; 80, 4). And therefore, those who belong to the unity of the Faith are not to receive the sacrament from their dispensing.

    Reply to Objection 3. Although fornication is not graver than other sins, yet men are more prone to it, owing to fleshly concupiscence. Consequently, this sin is specially inhibited to priests by the Church, lest anyone hear the mass of one living in concubinage. However, this is to be understood of one who is notorious, either from being convicted and sentenced, or from having acknowledged his guilt in legal form, or from it being impossible to conceal his guilt by any subterfuge.

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    Offline Matthew

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #12 on: February 06, 2010, 10:29:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
    However, this is to be understood of one who is notorious, either from being convicted and sentenced, or from having acknowledged his guilt in legal form, or from it being impossible to conceal his guilt by any subterfuge.


    So who has convicted the majority of priests alive today of heresy?

    You? Raoul?
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #13 on: February 06, 2010, 11:36:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Quote
    "...there is no perfect solution to the current Crisis, short of the Pope and hierarchy beginning to build up the Church again, rather than tearing it down."


    That can't happen because they don't have the faith.  



    Even if that were completely unquestionable, why do you presume their conversion impossible?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline CM

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    Home aloners taking over CathInfo?
    « Reply #14 on: February 06, 2010, 11:59:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
    However, this is to be understood of one who is notorious, either from being convicted and sentenced, or from having acknowledged his guilt in legal form, or from it being impossible to conceal his guilt by any subterfuge.


    Again, Aquinas is an authority, but he is not the final authority.  The Church has unanimously held that communion with heretics in sacred or profane matters is strictly forbidden.  cuм Ex Apostolatus mentions even the APPEARANCE of heresy as being just cause for withdrawing from religious subjection or communion with prelates and those who adhere to them.

    Mrs. M, I don't believe he is presuming their conversion impossible, but saying rather that until it occurs, they cannot do one bit to help the Church, outside of which they presently are.