Author Topic: Holy Week Law of Pope Pius XII (Read 5925 times)

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #5 on:** December 16, 2013, 09:15:55 PM »

I want to be very clear here.

A future Pope is going to clearly say which missal is the official Missal of Pius V. This is something in dispute now, because of the changes of the 1962 missal, and the Holy Week changes that occurred. Until that's done (and neither you, nor I have the authority to say which one it is) we wait. I look at the objective reality that the 1955 changes were a DESTRUCTION of the Holy Week rites, some of the most ancient rites in the Church, and I choose not to go along with those changes. What is also apparently in dispute, and wasn't up until then, was that Quo Primum was looked at by every successor Pope to Pope Saint Pius V, in the past as something that was not up for debate. The unchangeable parts of the Mass were never touched, neither was Holy Week touched by any Pope up until Pius XII.

When a future Pope comes along and decrees which rites are absolutely to be used, I will TOTALLY go along with whatever that decision is. Until then, we wait until this crisis is mercifully brought to an end, and there is a definite decision by a pope that's not entirely out of his mind (like obviously the last 6 popes we've had) to make that decision.

I do not dispute the authority of the Pope in disciplinary matters. That's not even an accusation that can be made.

Ambrose · « **Reply #6 on:** December 16, 2013, 09:46:56 PM »

PFT wrote:

Quote

I do not dispute the authority of the Pope in disciplinary matters. That's not even an accusation that can be made.

I am very happy to hear this. But, just so you know, the changes of Pope Pius XII fall under the disciplinary laws of the Church. I was about to cite numerous authorities for you to prove that, but in light of your last post, I do not see that as necessary.

The Popes are infallibly protected in their universal disciplinary laws, so as long as we are dealing with certain popes, we can be certain that their laws for the Church are good, holy and acceptable to God.

This principle is certain with the Holy Week rites. There is no valid Catholic principle that can be used to argue against Pope Pius XII's Holy Week law.

I will agree with you in regard to the 1962 missal. There remains grave questions about the orthodoxy of John XXIII, and therefore it remains uncertain if his laws are binding or not. The case of John XXIII is not an easy one to solve. The question that needs to be tackled by scholars is not about the 1962 missal, it is whether he was certainly a pope. If he was a Pope, then there can be no question that his laws are binding.

Since John XXIII's status is very much an open question, the status of his laws are also an open question.

The process of reasoning this out with Paul VI and his successors, as they were all clear public heretics. Catholics can form moral certainty of the falsity of their claims, therefore all of their universal laws are have no binding effect on Catholics. A non-popes laws are not laws, therefore are not protected by infallibility, therefore open to heresy, error, and possible incentives to evil and impiety. This fact about Paul VI's Novus Ordo is plain for all with eyes to see. It was clearly not protected by infallibility.

If Paul VI were a true Pope, the Novus Ordo Missae could never have come from him, the infallibility of the Church in protecting the Pope's universal disciplinary laws would have prevented it from being promulgated.

I am with you in agreement that when a Pope comes again, I will readily and immediately submit to all of his laws. This is the reason that I already submit to Pope Pius XII's law, it was the last law of the Church given by a certain Pope, therefore the 1955 Holy Week is infallibly protected and acceptable to God.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #7 on:** December 17, 2013, 09:48:20 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

I want to be very clear here.

A future Pope is going to clearly say which missal is the official Missal of Pius V. This is something in dispute now, because of the changes of the 1962 missal, and the Holy Week changes that occurred. Until that's done (and neither you, nor I have the authority to say which one it is) we wait. I look at the objective reality that the 1955 changes were a DESTRUCTION of the Holy Week rites, some of the most ancient rites in the Church, and I choose not to go along with those changes. What is also apparently in dispute, and wasn't up until then, was that Quo Primum was looked at by every successor Pope to Pope Saint Pius V, in the past as something that was not up for debate. The unchangeable parts of the Mass were never touched, neither was Holy Week touched by any Pope up until Pius XII.

When a future Pope comes along and decrees which rites are absolutely to be used, I will TOTALLY go along with whatever that decision is. Until then, we wait until this crisis is mercifully brought to an end, and there is a definite decision by a pope that's not entirely out of his mind (like obviously the last 6 popes we've had) to make that decision.

I do not dispute the authority of the Pope in disciplinary matters. That's not even an accusation that can be made.

Did you know that an "insane" or "out of his mind" "Pope" is not a valid Pope?

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #8 on:** December 17, 2013, 09:56:10 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: parentsfortruth
I want to be very clear here.

A future Pope is going to clearly say which missal is the official Missal of Pius V. This is something in dispute now, because of the changes of the 1962 missal, and the Holy Week changes that occurred. Until that's done (and neither you, nor I have the authority to say which one it is) we wait. I look at the objective reality that the 1955 changes were a DESTRUCTION of the Holy Week rites, some of the most ancient rites in the Church, and I choose not to go along with those changes. What is also apparently in dispute, and wasn't up until then, was that Quo Primum was looked at by every successor Pope to Pope Saint Pius V, in the past as something that was not up for debate. The unchangeable parts of the Mass were never touched, neither was Holy Week touched by any Pope up until Pius XII.

When a future Pope comes along and decrees which rites are absolutely to be used, I will TOTALLY go along with whatever that decision is. Until then, we wait until this crisis is mercifully brought to an end, and there is a definite decision by a pope that's not entirely out of his mind (like obviously the last 6 popes we've had) to make that decision.

I do not dispute the authority of the Pope in disciplinary matters. That's not even an accusation that can be made.

Did you know that an "insane" or "out of his mind" "Pope" is not a valid Pope?

Yes, but I suppose that's going to be for a future pope to decide whether those last 6 popes were antipopes or out of their mind. As a Catholic, you'd either have to be an apostate (which isn't even a Catholic), or out of your mind to do what they did. And that's not for me to decide.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #9 on:** December 17, 2013, 10:04:00 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: parentsfortruth
I want to be very clear here.

A future Pope is going to clearly say which missal is the official Missal of Pius V. This is something in dispute now, because of the changes of the 1962 missal, and the Holy Week changes that occurred. Until that's done (and neither you, nor I have the authority to say which one it is) we wait. I look at the objective reality that the 1955 changes were a DESTRUCTION of the Holy Week rites, some of the most ancient rites in the Church, and I choose not to go along with those changes. What is also apparently in dispute, and wasn't up until then, was that Quo Primum was looked at by every successor Pope to Pope Saint Pius V, in the past as something that was not up for debate. The unchangeable parts of the Mass were never touched, neither was Holy Week touched by any Pope up until Pius XII.

When a future Pope comes along and decrees which rites are absolutely to be used, I will TOTALLY go along with whatever that decision is. Until then, we wait until this crisis is mercifully brought to an end, and there is a definite decision by a pope that's not entirely out of his mind (like obviously the last 6 popes we've had) to make that decision.

I do not dispute the authority of the Pope in disciplinary matters. That's not even an accusation that can be made.

Did you know that an "insane" or "out of his mind" "Pope" is not a valid Pope?

Yes, but I suppose that's going to be for a future pope to decide whether those last 6 popes were antipopes or out of their mind. As a Catholic, you'd either have to be an apostate (which isn't even a Catholic), or out of your mind to do what they did. And that's not for me to decide.

Gottcha. So you are not anti-SV.