Author Topic: Holy Week Law of Pope Pius XII (Read 3281 times)

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #45 on:** December 20, 2013, 10:19:48 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

Well, how well-attended are the "resistance" Masses right now?

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

I mean, might must equal right then, according to that statement. Might as well go to the Novus Ordo if you're number hunting, and that has something to do with how good something is.

A future pope will come out definitely and say one way or the other. Until then, this is something contested. Whatever the future Pope's decision is, I'll go with.

SJB · « **Reply #46 on:** December 20, 2013, 10:25:22 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Quote from: Ambrose

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

Well, how well-attended are the "resistance" Masses right now?

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

I mean, might must equal right then, according to that statement. Might as well go to the Novus Ordo if you're number hunting, and that has something to do with how good something is.

A future pope will come out definitely and say one way or the other. Until then, this is something contested. Whatever the future Pope's decision is, I'll go with.

I am referring to the non-obligatory Holy Week liturgies and ceremonies. Sunday and Holy day Mass attendance is a different question altogether.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #47 on:** December 20, 2013, 10:33:39 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Quote from: Ambrose

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

I would agree that the above quote doesn't contribute anything substantial to the discussion either objectively or taking into account reasons, other than the holy week differences, that attendance at one Church or another are the way they are.

Location, bad clergy, the number of true Catholics near the Church, etc.

Curiously does SJB visit all the Church's in the country that are SV traditional? There are many. He pretty much just has to compare them all (all the SV chapels apart from CMRI) with the CMRI chapels for his answer.

SJB · « **Reply #48 on:** December 20, 2013, 11:32:16 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Ambrose

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

I would agree that the above quote doesn't contribute anything substantial to the discussion either objectively or taking into account reasons, other than the holy week differences, that attendance at one Church or another are the way they are.

Location, bad clergy, the number of true Catholics near the Church, etc.

Curiously does SJB visit all the Church's in the country that are SV traditional? There are many. He pretty much just has to compare them all (all the SV chapels apart from CMRI) with the CMRI chapels for his answer.

You misunderstand my comment. The pre-1955 data is factual. I was only commenting on the attendance where these ceremonies are still offered "pre-55."

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #49 on:** December 20, 2013, 11:48:36 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Ambrose

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

I would agree that the above quote doesn't contribute anything substantial to the discussion either objectively or taking into account reasons, other than the holy week differences, that attendance at one Church or another are the way they are.

Location, bad clergy, the number of true Catholics near the Church, etc.

Curiously does SJB visit all the Church's in the country that are SV traditional? There are many. He pretty much just has to compare them all (all the SV chapels apart from CMRI) with the CMRI chapels for his answer.

You misunderstand my comment. The pre-1955 data is factual. I was only commenting on the attendance where these ceremonies are still offered "pre-55."

I thought you were implying that attendance at a pre or post 1955 Mass was indication of which version was better.

But now that I think of it, that is usually not the type of argument you would make.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #50 on:** December 20, 2013, 11:50:38 AM »

SJB.

What locations have you seen. Is their a significant difference between the attendance at CMRI chapels and the other SV chapels that use the pre-1955 liturgy?

Of course in Ohio one pre-1955 Church split into two Churches but it had nothing to do with what liturgy they use.

Ambrose · « **Reply #51 on:** December 20, 2013, 12:43:20 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Amborse. Is someone who does not believe any heresy that slips and says something heretical a material heretic?

I think that the them, "material" heretic is imprecise. A Catholic that misspeaks or says someting contrary to innocently that is contrary to the Faith is not a heretic at all.

I would urge you to read this brilliant article on this subject by John Daly found HERE.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #52 on:** December 20, 2013, 12:45:12 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Amborse. Is someone who does not believe any heresy that slips and says something heretical a material heretic?

I think that the them, "material" heretic is imprecise. A Catholic that misspeaks or says someting contrary to innocently that is contrary to the Faith is not a heretic at all.

I would urge you to read this brilliant article on this subject by John Daly found HERE.

I agree with you and wanted to get confirmation. Thank you Ambrose.

Ambrose · « **Reply #53 on:** December 20, 2013, 12:47:47 PM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Quote from: Ambrose

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

Well, how well-attended are the "resistance" Masses right now?

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

I mean, might must equal right then, according to that statement. Might as well go to the Novus Ordo if you're number hunting, and that has something to do with how good something is.

A future pope will come out definitely and say one way or the other. Until then, this is something contested. Whatever the future Pope's decision is, I'll go with.

I was only demonstrating that it is ironic that the reasons that Pius XII changed the rite, lack of attendance during the Holy Week, appears to be currently present at chapels that reject the reformed rite.

This point in no way changes the argument, but I do find it ironic.

Ambrose · « **Reply #54 on:** December 20, 2013, 01:03:35 PM »

Ambrose wrote

Quote

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

SJB also clarifies this point, but since I summarized his statement and there is some confusion on this, let me also clarify. I was only referring to his precise assessment of attendance at the Holy Week at churches that he is familiar with that reject Pius XII's Holy Week law.

I was not referring to regular Sunday and Holyday attendance. Catholics are not obliged to attend Mass during the Holy Week, but are strongly encouraged to do so.

In the early 1950's Catholics were for the most part no longer attending the rites of the Holy Week, and the Pope intervened by significantly shortening the rites and by changing the times to later in the day. The action of the Pope was with great success, and Catholics were once again participating in the Holy Week.

Ambrose · « **Reply #55 on:** December 20, 2013, 01:05:24 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Amborse. Is someone who does not believe any heresy that slips and says something heretical a material heretic?

I think that the them, "material" heretic is imprecise. A Catholic that misspeaks or says someting contrary to innocently that is contrary to the Faith is not a heretic at all.

I would urge you to read this brilliant article on this subject by John Daly found HERE.

I agree with you and wanted to get confirmation. Thank you Ambrose.

Your welcome. I would urge you to bookmark that article, it explains this point very well, and explains the reasons why there is confusion regarding this as well.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #56 on:** December 21, 2013, 10:27:29 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: Ambrose

According to SJB, the chapels that he is familiar with that reject the Pius XII Holy Week are in the same condition as churches were in the early 1950s: almost empty.

Well, how well-attended are the "resistance" Masses right now?

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

I mean, might must equal right then, according to that statement. Might as well go to the Novus Ordo if you're number hunting, and that has something to do with how good something is.

A future pope will come out definitely and say one way or the other. Until then, this is something contested. Whatever the future Pope's decision is, I'll go with.

I was only demonstrating that it is ironic that the reasons that Pius XII changed the rite, lack of attendance during the Holy Week, appears to be currently present at chapels that reject the reformed rite.

This point in no way changes the argument, but I do find it ironic.

If it were available here, I'd be living at Church the entire week (figuratively, of course,) especially after hearing the arguments that Fr. Hesse made as to the incredible value of the ancient rites.