Author Topic: Holy Week Law of Pope Pius XII (Read 5910 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #25 on:** December 17, 2013, 01:38:02 PM »

Let me start with this. Let's assume for a minute that Pius XII is still pope. Pius XII gives a Wednesday audience and says: "Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead." Did the Holy See just become vacant?

Is that not 1) heresy and 2) public / manifest (since it was made at a public audience)?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #26 on:** December 17, 2013, 01:53:06 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Let me start with this. Let's assume for a minute that Pius XII is still pope. Pius XII gives a Wednesday audience and says: "Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead." Did the Holy See just become vacant?

Is that not 1) heresy and 2) public / manifest (since it was made at a public audience)?

He would be given a reasonable amount of time to clarify. When questioned about it if he continued to insist on it, he should be avoided and not trusted. If something like this happened a second time I believe we could be sure.

It would be public and manifest heresy. But if it was the first time he ever uttered such nonsense we would give him a chance to recant, clarify or admit he made a mistake by asking him to do so. He would most certainly be asked to clarify. And then he would either prove to be pertinacious or readily accept the teaching.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** December 17, 2013, 02:13:43 PM »

OK, so it happened that Pius XII just got tongue-tied and got two sentences mixed up in his head and inadvertently asserted the "not". So clearly manifest MATERIAL heresy no longer suffices to effect deposition. You also correctly anticipated the next step by saying that he has to be given the opportunity to recant. In other words, even if Pius XII intended to utter a statement (wasn't just tongue-tied), let's say it was something that he didn't KNOW was heretical and immediately retracted when someone pointed out to him. He would have been guilty of only MATERIAL heresy.

So we moved very quickly from MANIFEST HERESY deposes ipso facto to MANIFEST FORMAL HERESY. We've already added another adjective / qualifier.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #28 on:** December 17, 2013, 02:16:34 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

OK, so it happened that Pius XII just got tongue-tied and got two sentences mixed up in his head and inadvertently asserted the "not". So clearly manifest MATERIAL heresy no longer suffices to effect deposition. You also correctly anticipated the next step by saying that he has to be given the opportunity to recant.

So we moved very quickly from MANIFEST HERESY deposes ipso facto to MANIFEST FORMAL HERESY. We've already added another adjective / qualifier.

It indeed is as simple as he has to be a public heretic. A slip of the tongue does not a heretic make.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #29 on:** December 17, 2013, 02:20:15 PM »

Next step. Manifest to how many? St. Robert Bellarmine struggled with this question. He actually ended up saying that the heresy is manifest as soon as it's in a position to be made known, which is extremely problematic.

Let's say that I work in the Vatican apartments cleaning toilets. I overhear Pius XII saying to some Freemason that he doesn't believe in the Real Presence. I am shocked and tell the world in a press conference. Pius XII comes out publicly and lies, saying that he never said any such thing.

Would Pius XII be a manifest heretic (and therefore deposed) then?