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Author Topic: Holy Week changes  (Read 9369 times)

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Offline Raoul76

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Holy Week changes
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2011, 10:16:00 PM »
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  • JohnGrey said:
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    The use of the three-hour fast is, so far as I and my own understanding are concerned, licit; that said, it should be with the understanding much is profited in observing the greater fast, which was neither abrogated nor proscribed in Christus Dominus.  The precepts of canon law concerning the changes to the rubrics of Holy Week are outlined above; under them, it is perfectly licit to abandon them, and indeed should be imperative because of the harm done to the notion of liturgical stability.


    Is this what you mean by the precepts of canon law?

    JohnGrey said:
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    Under the canon law precepts of stability (the law was not intended to be perpetually binding with the allowance of abrogation by another pontiff at a later date) and cessation through harm to discipline (the changes were introduced as the first creeping vines of modernism to that would eventually choke the Holy Sacrifice out of the conciliar structure), the holy week rubrics are no longer in force.


    Yet we have had no pontiff since Pius XII or John XXIII, depending on how you look at it.  So who is the Pontiff that abrogated the Bugnini/ Pius XII Holy Week rubrics?  I'm getting a little scared here...

    Yes or no -- do you follow someone who calls himself a Pope?
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #61 on: February 28, 2011, 10:18:13 PM »
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  • FYI, J23 wrote Pacem in Terris.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline SJB

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #62 on: February 28, 2011, 10:47:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    You say it might have been a bad decision.  Maybe.  At first I was thinking that all disciplinary decisions are in themselves good, because if they come from a true Pope, they come from God.  But it might be better to say they are ALLOWED by God, and that some are better than others.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  My reasoning is that Cardinal Merry del Val disagreed with Pope St. Pius X lowering the age of first communion.  He even said "You're wrong on this one."  Well, Cardinal Merry del Val and Pius X were a team, so clearly questioning a discipline in itself isn't against the faith.
     


    Quote from: Van Noort, Christ's Church
    Assertion 3: The Church's infallibility extends to the general discipline of the Church. This proposition is theologically certain.

    By the term “general discipline of the Church” are meant those ecclesiastical laws passed for the universal Church for the direction of Christian worship and Christian living. Note the italicized words: ecclesiastical laws, passed for the universal Church.

    The imposing of commands belongs not directly to the teaching office but to the ruling office; disciplinary laws are only indirectly an object of infallibility, i.e., only by reason of the doctrinal decision implicit in them. When the Church's rulers sanction a law, they implicitly make a twofold judgment:

    1. “This law squares with the Church's doctrine of faith and morals”; that is, it imposes nothing that is at odds with sound belief and good morals. (15) This amounts to a doctrinal decree.

    2. “This law, considering all the circuмstances, is most opportune.” This is a decree of practical judgment.

    Although it would he rash to cast aspersions on the timeliness of a law, especially at the very moment when the Church imposes or expressly reaffirms it, still the Church does not claim to he infallible in issuing a decree of practical judgment. For the Church's rulers were never promised the highest degree of prudence for the conduct of affairs. But the Church is infallible in issuing a doctrinal decree as intimated above — and to such an extent that it can never sanction a universal law which would be at odds with faith or morality or would be by its very nature conducive to the injury of souls.

    The Church's infallibility in disciplinary matters, when understood in this way, harmonizes beautifully with the mutability of even universal laws. For a law, even though it be thoroughly consonant with revealed truth, can, given a change in circuмstances, become less timely or even useless, so that prudence may dictate its abrogation or modification.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #63 on: February 28, 2011, 10:54:20 PM »
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  • It's quite clear - quite clear - that the one hour fast is bad.

    Now if the one hour fast is bad, I don't think one can easily argue the 3 hour fast is good or an improvement over the old discipline.  Particularly given the timing.  At best one could argue it is good for people in hard circuмstances.  

    Father Alphonse Marie, when visiting our parish, recommended the fast from midnight but said for masses late in the day the three hour fast would be fine.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #64 on: February 28, 2011, 11:08:47 PM »
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  • Thanks, SJB.  Are you contradicting me or agreeing with me?  I think what you posted fits with what I was suggesting.  

    You can go so far as to insult a discipline and be given the minorly negative theological note of "rash" --

    Quote
    Although it would be rash to cast aspersions on the timeliness of a law, especially at the very moment when the Church imposes or expressly reaffirms it, still the Church does not claim to he infallible in issuing a decree of practical judgment. For the Church's rulers were never promised the highest degree of prudence for the conduct of affairs.


    Therefore, to merely question a discipline would not even be rash.

    What would be more than rash, and bordering on blasphemous, would be to say a disciplinary law was harmful to faith and morals.  

    Quote
    But the Church is infallible in issuing a doctrinal decree as intimated above — and to such an extent that it can never sanction a universal law which would be at odds with faith or morality or would be by its very nature conducive to the injury of souls.


    That doesn't mean you can't say another disciplinary law was BETTER for faith and morals, does it?  

    Anyway, like with NFP, I have made my peace with the three-hour fast, I just assume there's some reason for it that I can't understand and that God knows about.   I have some theories, like that He knew that Vatican II would lead to excessive rigorism in the opposite direction, and so He allowed a moderate path.  Another theory is that he knew we'd have to drive longer to get to Mass, us sedes and other trads, and so He gave us a break, knowing we couldn't just go around the corner to go to Mass very often.  

    Like CMRI in Fontana has Mass at two thirty, if you were observing the after-midnight fast, you'd have to go for over fifteen hours without food or water.  It can be done, and I think it's salutary, but God doesn't always push people that hard.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #65 on: February 28, 2011, 11:12:07 PM »
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  • That is to say, I agree with Tele I think.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline JohnGrey

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #66 on: February 28, 2011, 11:54:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76

    Yet we have had no pontiff since Pius XII or John XXIII, depending on how you look at it.  So who is the Pontiff that abrogated the Bugnini/ Pius XII Holy Week rubrics?  I'm getting a little scared here...

    Yes or no -- do you follow someone who calls himself a Pope?


    No, no, you're missing the point entirely.  The stability of an ecclesiastical law, in this case a law governing a part of liturgical discipline, deals with its intended duration.  Usually, when there is a reform of liturgy or other discipline by the Roman Pontiff, it should be considered probable that that Pontiff intends that change to be lasting, in use for the foreseeable future.  Not so with the changes to the Holy Week and also the rubrics of the Mass prepared by the CLR.  It was stated by Bugnini himself that the changes were not intended to be maintained in their present state, but would abrogated in favor of broader changes at a later date.  The changes were openly recognized as experimental and by definition had an expiration date on them; this is proved by Roncalli abrogating the conciliar church's use of them in favor of his own missal.

    The point is that when an ecclesiastical law is defined as being transitory it is neither requisite, nor perhaps even laudable, to maintain it if doing so harms the discipline or the faithful's understanding of it.

    Offline TKGS

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #67 on: March 01, 2011, 06:54:31 AM »
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  • In regards to the three hour fast (as well as the relaxation in special circuмstances of the time of Mass), it seems that it was an inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  

    He already knew that many Catholics were going to soon be deprived of the Sacraments and He already knew that there would be some traveling priests who would, in order to provide the Mass to more of the faithful, would have to say Mass at later hours than usual.  He already knew that evening Masses (that is, the evening of Sunday or Holy Days, not the evening before) would become necessary in some places if people were to attend any Masses.

    Thus, the Holy Ghost inspired the change in the REQUIREMENT to fast from midnight in order to accommodate what would soon become necessary while we still had a reigning pope who could legally and morally make the change a reality.  Pope Pius XII obeyed this inspiration from the Holy Ghost even though he did not know the reason why this inspiration would become necessary.


    Offline SJB

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #68 on: March 01, 2011, 09:27:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Thanks, SJB.  Are you contradicting me or agreeing with me?  I think what you posted fits with what I was suggesting.


    I was providing a source that was in agreement. :-)
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #69 on: March 01, 2011, 02:41:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    The point is that when an ecclesiastical law is defined as being transitory it is neither requisite, nor perhaps even laudable, to maintain it if doing so harms the discipline or the faithful's understanding of it.


    Who defined it as transitory? Did Pius XII?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline CathMomof7

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #70 on: March 01, 2011, 02:55:23 PM »
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  • Mass at our chapel begins at 4 pm.  I have attempted to fast from midnight until Mass.  But since I am usually done with dinner at 6 pm on Saturday and to bed by 10 or 11, it turned into a 24 hour fast.  I almost fainted and decided it was not wise to not eat for 24 hours.  Three hours, minimum, is our standard now.  


    Offline JohnGrey

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #71 on: March 01, 2011, 03:06:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: JohnGrey
    The point is that when an ecclesiastical law is defined as being transitory it is neither requisite, nor perhaps even laudable, to maintain it if doing so harms the discipline or the faithful's understanding of it.


    Who defined it as transitory? Did Pius XII?


    Naturally.  Pius XII didn't just allow the CLR work without any guidelines or prospectus.  A very lengthy docuмent called the Memoria sulla riforma liturgica was prepared and approved by Pius XII before Bugnini and his cohorts were to begin work on formulating and implementing the actual changes; I incidentally have one of approximately 30 copies ever released outside the Holy See.  In it, it makes clear that the reform of the liturgy would occur in stages, with abrogation of the previous phase when the new one was implemented.  It also instructed that at the end of the reform, a Code of Liturgical Law would be produced that would then formalize the stability of the reform.

    The changes to the rubrics of the Breviarium and the Rites of Holy Week were actually one a part of the first phase, and the only ones implemented by Pius XII before his death.  The fact that he promulgated no new breviary or liturgical books, in fact commanded that no changes should be made to existing Breviaries and Missals despite the changes makes it obvious that they were considered experimental and of limited duration.

    Offline SJB

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #72 on: March 01, 2011, 03:55:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    The point is that when an ecclesiastical law is defined as being transitory it is neither requisite, nor perhaps even laudable, to maintain it if doing so harms the discipline or the faithful's understanding of it.


    You are making two very huge assumptions here:

    1. The changes in and of themselves were harmful.

    2. It is not required to follow transitory laws (I'm not conceding it was transitory). Do you have some source who says this? I can't believe you do.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline JohnGrey

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #73 on: March 01, 2011, 04:29:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB

    You are making two very huge assumptions here:

    1. The changes in and of themselves were harmful.

    2. It is not required to follow transitory laws (I'm not conceding it was transitory). Do you have some source who says this? I can't believe you do.


    It is not merely for the sake of harm that a transitory law may be abrogated.  By virtue of the explicitly-defined nature of the reform of Pius XII, the changes were intended to be experimental not normative.  Its effect was recorded, to be studied and used as necessary.  Because of the apostasy, no functional use of the results were ever used by a valid Roman pontiff.  Despite this, the original intention of the reform was completed.  A founding principle of canon law is that of intrinsic cessation; a law, having completed its end, whose end has become unjust or unreasonable, negates itself.  In the words of the canonist Edward Regatillo: "the law ceases ipso facto without a legislator’s declaration.”

    This is the common doctrine among canonists, as echoed by Amleto Cicognani, who writes:

    "In treating the el­ements of law we saw that it is proper and fitting that a law should be stable and firm. How­ever, every law has its ele­ment of uncer­tainty, for the reasons and the purpose for which the law was made can change, and consequently, since law is an ordi­nance in accordance with reason, it ought to be revoked if it becomes useless, harmful or unreason­able; and if it has not actually been re­voked, it is to be reasonably pre­sumed to be re­voked. For its purpose is the soul of law, and a law without a soul lapses, ceases to exist, dies."

    Offline Cristian

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    Holy Week changes
    « Reply #74 on: March 01, 2011, 05:39:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: JohnGrey
    The point is that when an ecclesiastical law is defined as being transitory it is neither requisite, nor perhaps even laudable, to maintain it if doing so harms the discipline or the faithful's understanding of it.


    Who defined it as transitory? Did Pius XII?


    Naturally.  Pius XII didn't just allow the CLR work without any guidelines or prospectus.  A very lengthy docuмent called the Memoria sulla riforma liturgica was prepared and approved by Pius XII before Bugnini and his cohorts were to begin work on formulating and implementing the actual changes; I incidentally have one of approximately 30 copies ever released outside the Holy See.  In it, it makes clear that the reform of the liturgy would occur in stages, with abrogation of the previous phase when the new one was implemented.  It also instructed that at the end of the reform, a Code of Liturgical Law would be produced that would then formalize the stability of the reform.

    The changes to the rubrics of the Breviarium and the Rites of Holy Week were actually one a part of the first phase, and the only ones implemented by Pius XII before his death.  The fact that he promulgated no new breviary or liturgical books, in fact commanded that no changes should be made to existing Breviaries and Missals despite the changes makes it obvious that they were considered experimental and of limited duration.



    2 Questions for now:

    1) Sorry but what is CLR?
    2) Any proof that Pius XII "prepared and approved" the docuмent called Memoria sulla riforma liturgica?