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Author Topic: Hillel and Shammai  (Read 17865 times)

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Offline Caminus

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Hillel and Shammai
« on: October 13, 2010, 11:07:55 PM »
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    Hillel: A famous Jєωιѕн rabbi who lived about 70 B.C.-A.D. 10. Our only source of information concerning him is the тαℓмυd, from which the following account of Hillel's career can be gathered. He was born in Babylonia, and was a descendent of the family of David. Although he lived in poor circuмstances, his zeal for God's Law prompted him to devote himself to its study while yet in Babylon. Out of the same zeal, he went, at the age of forty it is said, to Jerusalem, where Shemaiah and Abtalion were at the time the leading teachers. In the Holy City he hired himself as a day-labourer to earn his own living and that of his family, and also to meet the expenses of receiving instruction. He thus spent the next forty years of his life, with the result that he understood, we are told, all languages, including those of the inanimate and of the brute creation, and of the demons themselves. Some time after the death of Shemaiah and Abtalion, Hillel was recognized as the best jurist of the day, and was so regarded during the last forty years of his life. He is also represented as the head of the Sanhedrin with the title of Nasi (prince), as the founder of a lenient school, in usual opposition to the stricter school of Shammai, as the author of seven hermeneutic rules, as the framer of certain decrees which happily accommodated some points of the Law to the changed circuмstances of his age, as the ancestor of the patriarchs who stood at the head of Palestinian Judaism till about the fifth century of our era. Hillel was surnamed "the Great", and also "the Elder", and over his tomb were uttered the words "Oh the gentle! Oh the pious! Oh the disciple of Esdras!" Several anecdotes illustrating his zeal for the Law and his wonderful patience are embodied in the тαℓмυd. Among the sayings ascribed to him, the following are particularly worthy of notice: "Whatever is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary"; "Be of the disciples of Aaron; loving peace and pursuing peace; loving mankind and bringing them near to the Torah."

    It is certain that a good deal of what is contained in the тαℓмυdic account of Hillel's career is unhistorical; for example, the division of his life into three periods of forty years each; his presidency of the Sanhedrin; his understanding of all languages, etc. When all this has been duly deducted, however, one cannot help feeling that he finds himself in presence of a strong personality, of a character stamped with unusual sweetness and elevation. Again, when all Hillel's good deeds and wise sayings are closely examined, one can readily see that he was in truth simply a rabbi, perhaps the cleverest and best of the rabbis of his day: a Jєωιѕн casuist rather than a moralist; a man who, for personal character and spiritual insight and permanent influence, cannot in any way compare with, much less equal or surpass, as some have affirmed of late, Christ, the Light, and Saviour of the World. It has been ably argued that the Pollion referred to a few times by Josephus is Hillel under a Greek name. ~Catholic Encyclopedia, Hillel


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    Shammai: A famous Jєωιѕн scribe who together with Hillel made up the last of "the pairs" (zúgóth), or, as they are sometimes erroneously named, "presidents and vice-presidents" of the Sanhedrin. The schools of Shammai and Hillel held rival sway, according to тαℓмυdic tradition (Shabbath 15a), from about a hundred years before the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Comparatively little is known about either of the great scribes. The Mischna, the only trustworthy authority in this matter, mentions Shammai in only eight passages (Maaser sheni, II, 4, 9; Orla, II, 5; Eduyoth I, 1-4, 10, II; Aboth, I, 12, 15, V, 17; Kelim, XXII, 4; Nidda, I, 1). He was the very opposite of Hillel in character and teaching. Stern and severe in living the law to the letter, he was strict to an extreme in legal interpretation. The tale tells that, on the feast of the Tabernacles, his daughter-in-law gave birth to a child; straightway Shammai had the roof broken through and the bed covered over with boughs, so that the child might celebrate the feast in an improvised sukka (tent or booth) and might not fail of keeping the law of Leviticus (xxiii, 42).

    The strictness of the master characterizes the school of Shammai as opposed to that of Hillel. The difference between the two schools had regard chiefly to the interpretation of the first, second, third and fifth parts of the "Mishna" — i.e. to religious dues, the keeping of the Sabbath and of holy days, the laws in regard to marriage and purification. The law, for example, to prepare no food on the Sabbath had to be observed by not allowing even the beast to toil; hence it was argued that an egg laid on the Sabbath might not be eaten (Eduyoth, iv, 1). Another debate was whether, on a holy day, a ladder might be borne from one dove-cote to another or should only be glided from hole to hole. The need of fringes to a linen night-dress was likewise made a matter of difference between the two schools (Eduyoth, iv, 10). In these and many other discussions we find much straining out of gnats and swallowing of camels (Matthew 23:24), much pain taken to push the Mosaic law to an unbearable extreme, and no heed given to the practical reform which was really needed in Jєωιѕн morals. It was the method of the school of Shammai rather than that of Hillel which Christ condemned. On this account non-Catholic scholars generally make Him out to have belonged to the school of Hillel. This opinion has been shared in by a few Catholics (Gigot, "General Introduction to the Study of the Holy Scripture", New York, 1900, p. 422). Most Catholic exegetes, however, refuse to admit that Christ belonged to any of the fallible Jєωιѕн schools of interpretation. He established His own school — to wit, the infallible teaching body to which He gave the Old Testament to have and to keep and to interpret to all nations without error. ~Catholic Encyclopedia, Shammai



    Telesphorus,

    It is in this sense and this sense alone which the author of the article in the Angelus (even if it were an imprudent or exaggerated statement this does not implicate the entire SSPX for crying out loud) meant to use the phrase "instrument of heaven."  For this particular method of interpretation or application of the Law was analagous or similar to the manner in which Jesus Christ interpreted the Law.  Whether this is true remains a question of fact.  You are free to disagree without imputing a false meaning to the words.  To make this factual statement into a theoretical praise of Pharisaical Judaism is beyond belief, for the very notion carries with it the idea that, even though Hillel was a Pharisee, his interpretation of the Law tended away from that sect, correctly ascertaining in a general way the import of the Law.  Believe it or not, there were Jєωs who did understand the meaning and spirit of the Law in those days.      

    For you to make a qualified and limited statement into an absolute one is a gross act of intellectual dishonesty.  Only by continually distorting the intended meaning of the author can you continue on this slanderous (obsessive?) campaign.  The fact that you have repeatedly evaded this common sense observation recently and in an old thread wherein this meaning was explained only serves to demonstrate your bad will.  


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Hillel and Shammai
    « Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 11:18:13 PM »
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    You are free to disagree without imputing a false meaning to the words.  To make this factual statement into a theoretical praise of Pharisaical Judaism is beyond belief,


    The Church has never taught that about Hillel.  There are Hillel houses at the universities because he's one of the founders of тαℓмυdic Judaism.

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    Hillel (הלל) (born Babylon traditionally c.110BCE-10CE[1] in Jerusalem) was a famous Jєωιѕн religious leader, one of the most important figures in Jєωιѕн history. He is associated with the development of the Mishnah and the тαℓмυd. Renowned within Judaism as a sage and scholar, he was the founder of the House of Hillel school for Tannaïm (Sages of the Mishnah) and the founder of a dynasty of Sages who stood at the head of the Jєωs living in the land of Israel until roughly the fifth century of the Christian Era.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder

    Now it seems to me the Church has never taught that this man was an "instrument of heaven . . . preparing the way of the Lord."  It seems to me this first became known to us in the Dec. 2009 Angelus.  

    Now it would be one thing if this was just an innocent mistake by an inexperienced article writer grasping at straws, and lax editing.  But there has been no clarification, no retraction.

    It's a kosher article.  We're dealing with kosher trads in the society now - its time to face up to the fact.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Hillel and Shammai
    « Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 11:21:13 PM »
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    his interpretation of the Law tended away from that sect, correctly ascertaining in a general way the import of the Law.  Believe it or not, there were Jєωs who did understand the meaning and spirit of the Law in those days.  


    Certainly the opposite was the case, regarding the spirit of the Law concerning divorce.

    http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/marriage.htm

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Hillel and Shammai
    « Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 11:27:30 PM »
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    For you to make a qualified and limited statement into an absolute one is a gross act of intellectual dishonesty.


    Defending the statement on the basis of a single reference in a Catholic Encyclopedia, and refusing to retract it, is gross intellectual dishonesty.  That's the problem.  If it was one qualified limited statement in a single article that was admitted to be wrong - this would be different.  As it stands it does indeed indict the Angelus, and the by extension the oversight of the society.

     
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    Only by continually distorting the intended meaning of the author can you continue on this slanderous (obsessive?) campaign.


    There's a defnite pattern that's been observed.  From speaking of the shared covenant and elder brothers, and omitting prayers that were to be said at the end of mass, to articles like this in the Angelus.  

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    The fact that you have repeatedly evaded this common sense observation recently and in an old thread wherein this meaning was explained only serves to demonstrate your bad will.  


    I haven't evaded anything.  Do you believe Hillel prepared the way of the Lord by propagating his school of Pharisaism?  I can't, and I don't believe any true Catholic can believe that and stand by such a statement.  

    Offline Caminus

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    Hillel and Shammai
    « Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 09:44:48 AM »
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  • I think I've made the point of the author clear which was a limited, historical observation about the interpretation of the Law.  This fact alone renders your exaggerated statements obviously contrived since after the coming of the Messiah, the Law was rendered moot thereby proving that the statement was in no way intended to praise false Judaism after Christ, much less today.  The question of the interpretation of the Law was controverted prior to Christ and observing that a particular Jєω understood it better than most is a perfectly acceptable assertion.  To infer that such an observation amounts to accepting Hillel's errors is your own logical fallacy.  But when one reads a little too much Hoffman and Jones, one's perception of reality is skewed.  


    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 10:31:29 AM »
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  • To follow your position to its logical conclusion, any recognition of a Jєω under the Old Testament and his virtue in relation to the Law, e.g. this or that Jєω was faithful to the holy Law, correctly understood it in spirit and letter, would be tantamount to praising Judaism today or turning "koscher."

    I think any reasonable person can see the point.  You're not making proper distinctions and then blaming everyone else for your own fallacies.    

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 10:40:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    To follow your position to its logical conclusion, any recognition of a Jєω under the Old Testament and his virtue in relation to the Law, e.g. this or that Jєω was faithful to the holy Law, correctly understood it in spirit and letter, would be tantamount to praising Judaism today or turning "koscher."


    Hillel isn't in the New Testament.  We're talking about one of the founders of the тαℓмυdic religion.

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    I think any reasonable person can see the point.  You're not making proper distinctions and then blaming everyone else for your own fallacies.    


    What distinctions haven't been made?  There is no fallacy here: the Angelus apparently are content to invent new teachings about Hillel that give the founder of тαℓмυdic Judaism an important role in preparing the Jєωs to accept Christ.  It would be ridiculous and funny if it wasn't so unbelievably wicked.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 10:54:41 AM »
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    I think I've made the point of the author clear which was a limited, historical observation about the interpretation of the Law.


    There's nothing limited in saying someone is "an instrument of heaven . . .preparing the way of the Lord."  If someone is has such an exalted position in the history of Christ's coming, then I expect the Church to teach something about it.  I don't expect an author in the Angelus to be able to make such a statement on his own authority, and for the editors of the Angelus to defend it on the basis of a Catholic Encyclopedia article which is far more limited (but still wrong, as the Catholic Encyclopedia sometimes is)  This is the Angelus literally inventing a new Catholic religious figure: it's simply unbelievable.

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    This fact alone renders your exaggerated statements obviously contrived since after the coming of the Messiah, the Law was rendered moot thereby proving that the statement was in no way intended to praise false Judaism after Christ, much less today.


    Christianity has no use for the тαℓмυd, and has never honored this originator of тαℓмυdic Judaism.  The Angelus, however, since the lifting of the excommunications, seems fit to honor the founder of a different religion with the most exalted language who is not honored by the Church.  That is false ecuмenism - plain and simple.

     
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    The question of the interpretation of the Law was controverted prior to Christ and observing that a particular Jєω understood it better than most is a perfectly acceptable assertion.


    Suppose the editor had added the bit about Hillel permitting divorce for any reason, right after calling him an instrument of heaven.  Or suppose the author had mentioned that Hillel is honored as the founder of тαℓмυdic Judaism, and that his school led the Jєωs in rejecting Christ for centuries?  The author seems to be incredibly ignorant (as though he read nothing about Hillel, but I doubt that), and Father Heggenberger's response to Hoffman is a total stone-wall and dodge.

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    To infer that such an observation amounts to accepting Hillel's errors is your own logical fallacy.


    They say Hillel's system was not condemned, but it's quite clear divorce was absolutely condemned.  Christ didn't just condemn the onerous restrictions of Pharisaism.  He also condemned

    Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.

    http://bible.cc/mark/7-13.htm

    Now they said Christ didn't condemn Hillel's school.  Is there any evidence at all for that?

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    But when one reads a little too much Hoffman and Jones, one's perception of reality is skewed.  


    Jones has actually condemned the Society for antisemitism.  


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 10:56:30 AM »
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    Hillel isn't in the New Testament.  We're talking about one of the founders of the тαℓмυdic religion.


    I meant to say, he's not in the Bible and he's not a part of Sacred Tradition.

    So all of this discussion of his role in the coming of Christ is part of the fabrication of a kosher-Trad religion that isn't Catholic.

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 12:02:37 PM »
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  • Repeating the same fallacies doesn't help your case.  You've reached an irrational state of mind, I can do nothing further.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 12:20:30 PM »
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    Repeating the same fallacies doesn't help your case.  You've reached an irrational state of mind, I can do nothing further.


    When has the Church taught Hillel was an instrument of heaven preparing the way of the Lord?

    Who decided that this was acceptable to publish in the Angelus?



    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 12:32:52 PM »
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  • The "Church" hasn't ruled on or explicitly taught literally thousands of opinions one might read in Catholic literature.  To infer that absent formal Church teaching no one can legitimately make a proposition about a subject matter is yet another grave fallacy.  To think otherwise is to remove any possibility of speaking about religion outside of explicit teaching of the Church.  

    And considering that the proposition in question isn't problematic correctly understood, your second question is moot.  Obviously, if we abuse language and the correct method of interpretation as you do then we should be wondering that.  As it stands, that is not the case so your question is irrelevant.  

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #12 on: October 14, 2010, 12:43:02 PM »
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    The "Church" hasn't ruled on or explicitly taught literally thousands of opinions one might read in Catholic literature.  


    The Church is guided by Tradition.  Where is the Tradition of Hillel being an instrument of heaven preparing the way of the Lord?  It's a complete invention, a fabrication, and for the Angelus to publish it is for the Angelus to start teaching a new religion of false ecuмenism.


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    To infer that absent formal Church teaching no one can legitimately make a proposition about a subject matter is yet another grave fallacy.


    If Hillel was an instrument of heaven preparing the way of the Lord it is something I expect to have a basis in Catholic tradition.  Otherwise, it is a complete invention, a fabrication.  This isn't just any proposition.  This is about what Catholics believe about the coming of Christ.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't found the SSPX so the Angelus could publish articles practically canonising the founder of тαℓмυdic Judaism.  He didn't found the SSPX so the superior general could speak of elder brothers and shared covenants.  He didn't found the SSPX for priests who refuse to read aloud prayers for the Jєωs at the time of Christ the King processions.  If you believe the SSPX is continuing the mission of the Church then you should be gravely, gravely concerned about this.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't disobey so that members of the society would blindly submit to infamies like this.

     
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    To think otherwise is to remove any possibility of speaking about religion outside of explicit teaching of the Church.  


    Nonsense.  If the role of Hillel in salvation history is the discovery of the December 2009 Angelus and the SSPX stands by it then the SSPX claims to stand for traditional Catholicism are undermined fundamentally.

    Inventing new teachings about Church history is just as bad as any other blatant error.  Just as bad as modernism.

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #13 on: October 14, 2010, 02:39:20 PM »
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    Quote from: Caminus
    The "Church" hasn't ruled on or explicitly taught literally thousands of opinions one might read in Catholic literature.  


    Quote
    The Church is guided by Tradition.  Where is the Tradition of Hillel being an instrument of heaven preparing the way of the Lord?  It's a complete invention, a fabrication, and for the Angelus to publish it is for the Angelus to start teaching a new religion of false ecuмenism.


    That's not a response to what I said.  It's just more of the same bald assertions that have no foundation in reality.  Do you seriously deny that there are no opinions in Catholic literature not taught by the Church?  

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    To infer that absent formal Church teaching no one can legitimately make a proposition about a subject matter is yet another grave fallacy.


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    If Hillel was an instrument of heaven preparing the way of the Lord it is something I expect to have a basis in Catholic tradition.  Otherwise, it is a complete invention, a fabrication.  This isn't just any proposition.  This is about what Catholics believe about the coming of Christ.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't found the SSPX so the Angelus could publish articles practically canonising the founder of тαℓмυdic Judaism.  He didn't found the SSPX so the superior general could speak of elder brothers and shared covenants.  He didn't found the SSPX for priests who refuse to read aloud prayers for the Jєωs at the time of Christ the King processions.  If you believe the SSPX is continuing the mission of the Church then you should be gravely, gravely concerned about this.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't disobey so that members of the society would blindly submit to infamies like this.


    Pathetic slander.  Spare me your ravings and get to the real point.  In order for you to make this work, you have to confound a qualified statement with an absolute.  In your mind, you have to do this and then you are free to draw the wildest conclusions.  It's the game of a madman.  

     
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    To think otherwise is to remove any possibility of speaking about religion outside of explicit teaching of the Church.  


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    Nonsense.  If the role of Hillel in salvation history is the discovery of the December 2009 Angelus and the SSPX stands by it then the SSPX claims to stand for traditional Catholicism are undermined fundamentally.


    Your distortion continues while snipping out the inconvienent points in my post.  The fact is that his "school's" particular interpretation of the Law was favorable to the Gospel.  It's a statement of fact.  Do you disagree with that?  Great!  Feel free to do so, but just don't confuse that with anything else.  Are you ever going to deal with your fallacies?  

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    Inventing new teachings about Church history is just as bad as any other blatant error.  Just as bad as modernism.


    It's not a "invention" about "Church history" it is a statement of fact about a Jєω who allegedly understood the nature and spirit of the Law better than most of his time.  Your fallacies are so glaring that it hurts my eyes.  I've enumerated them.  Go back and read.  Not only do you not understand the issue here, it's obvious that you don't understand Modernism either.  

    But if you think its really that bad, then go find a hole and climb into it.  By frequenting an SSPX chapel you are complicit in these "crimes."  Don't be a duplicitous traitor.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #14 on: October 14, 2010, 02:52:04 PM »
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  • I repeat:

    "The Church is guided by Tradition.  Where is the Tradition of Hillel being an instrument of heaven preparing the way of the Lord?  It's a complete invention, a fabrication, and for the Angelus to publish it is for the Angelus to start teaching a new religion of false ecuмenism. "

    It's a new religious idea that's not Catholic at all.  

    I don't believe all SSPX priests are bad - just that there's a very serious problem.

    Anyone who calls someone from Biblical times an instrument of heaven preparing the way of the Lord without some Church tradition teaching it is making up a new religion.  That has nothing to do with the general question of opinions the Church hasn't ruled on - it's a simple fact.  

    you can't answer that.  What's your blind loyalty going to get you?