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Author Topic: Hidden Christians were no prize!  (Read 441 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Hidden Christians were no prize!
« on: Yesterday at 12:35:45 PM »
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  • Here are your "hidden Christians". Read through to the end:

    Approximately 30,000 secret Christians, some of whom had adopted these new ways of practicing Christianity, came out of hiding when religious freedom was re-established in 1873 after the Meiji Restoration. The Kakure Kirishitan became known as Mukashi Kirishitan (昔キリシタン), or 'ancient Christians', and emerged not only from traditional Christian areas in Kyushu, but also from other rural areas of Japan.[1]
    Some Kakure Kirishitan did not rejoin the Catholic Church, and became known as the Hanare Kirishitan (離れキリシタン, 'separated Christians').[1][3] Hanare Kirishitan are now primarily found in Urakami and on the Gotō Islands.[2]
    In the early 1990s, anthropologist Christal Whelan discovered some Hanare Kirishitan still living on the Gotō Islands where Kakure Kirishitan had once fled. There were only two surviving priests on the islands, both of whom were over 90, and they would not talk to each other. The few surviving laity had also reached old age, and some of them no longer had any priests from their lineage and prayed alone. Although these Hanare Kirishitan had a strong tradition of secrecy, they agreed to be filmed for Whelan's docuмentary Otaiya.[6]
    The Kakure Kirishitan still exist today, forming "what is arguably a separate faith, barely recognizable as the creed imported in the mid-1500s by Catholic missionaries".[3] In 2025, it was reported that there were less than 100 Hidden Christians left on the island of Ikitsuki in Nagasaki, down from 10,000 in the 1940s.[7]
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Hidden Christians were no prize!
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 01:02:05 PM »
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  • The Catholic Faith is a habit of life. If you cease to practice the Catholic Faith, you will cease to be Catholic. It's simple. How can you stay Catholic without practicing your Faith for decades?

    Home-Aloneism proponents such as Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer LOVE to bring up and promote the  "Japanese Hidden Christians". But far from being a good model for Traditional Catholics, these Japanese Christians were in VERY sad shape. They kept a faint memory of a couple basic dogmas (priestly celibacy, etc.) and not much more. I shudder to think how many of them lost their souls. The Hidden Christians are the "patron saint" of Home Aloners and Home Aloneism-promoters.

    I have no respect OR devotion to these so-called "hidden Christians". Why would I? They weren't saints, they might have all gone to hell for all we know. We should NOT base our current actions on what these particular Japanese did, nor follow their path.

    They used a Buddhist goddess statue, but secretly calling it Mary. But after centuries of using a Buddhist goddess statue, guess what happened? Many of them lost the Faith. THE FAITH IS A HABIT OF LIFE.

    "Catholic is as Catholic does."
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    Offline JacquesCathelineau

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    Re: Hidden Christians were no prize!
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 11:58:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew 2025-11-12, 12:02:05 PM
    The Catholic Faith is a habit of life. If you cease to practice the Catholic Faith, you will cease to be Catholic. It's simple. How can you stay Catholic without practicing your Faith for decades?

    Home-Aloneism proponents such as Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer LOVE to bring up and promote the  "Japanese Hidden Christians". But far from being a good model for Traditional Catholics, these Japanese Christians were in VERY sad shape. They kept a faint memory of a couple basic dogmas (priestly celibacy, etc.) and not much more. I shudder to think how many of them lost their souls. The Hidden Christians are the "patron saint" of Home Aloners and Home Aloneism-promoters.

    I have no respect OR devotion to these so-called "hidden Christians". Why would I? They weren't saints, they might have all gone to hell for all we know. We should NOT base our current actions on what these particular Japanese did, nor follow their path.

    They used a Buddhist goddess statue, but secretly calling it Mary. But after centuries of using a Buddhist goddess statue, guess what happened? Many of them lost the Faith. THE FAITH IS A HABIT OF LIFE.

    "Catholic is as Catholic does."
    You are misrepresenting history to score a point. Christianity was outlawed and brutally persecuted under the Tokugawa regime until the Meiji era, when legal toleration was restored in 1873, which forced thousands of faithful underground.  Those “Hidden Christians” preserved baptismal formulas, prayers, and Christian identity for generations without regular clergy and when missionaries returned in the 1860s–1870s many identified themselves and rejoined full communion with the Catholic Church.  Scholars make a crucial distinction between those faithful Kakure Kirishitan who returned to Rome and later Hanare Kirishitan sects that developed syncretic practices. Conflating the two is a category error.  What some sources call “Buddhist statues” were often Marian or Christian images intentionally disguised as local figures for survival. This was camouflage, not confession of Buddhist worship.  The modern demographic collapse on islands like Ikitsuki, where recent reports estimate under 100 elderly practitioners, is a sociological fact, not proof that these families all went to hell.  Your sweeping moral verdict is theologically rash and historically uninformed. Historical fidelity under persecution deserves respect, not ridicule.

    PS: Statements like “if you cease to practice the Faith, you cease to be Catholic” border on Pelagianism because they ignore God’s grace, the indelible mark of baptism, and the reality that the Faith can be preserved even under centuries of persecution without priests.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Hidden Christians were no prize!
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 12:11:38 AM »
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  • You are misrepresenting history to score a point. Christianity was outlawed and brutally persecuted under the Tokugawa regime until the Meiji era, when legal toleration was restored in 1873, which forced thousands of faithful underground.  Those “Hidden Christians” preserved baptismal formulas, prayers, and Christian identity for generations without regular clergy and when missionaries returned in the 1860s–1870s many identified themselves and rejoined full communion with the Catholic Church.  Scholars make a crucial distinction between those faithful Kakure Kirishitan who returned to Rome and later Hanare Kirishitan sects that developed syncretic practices. Conflating the two is a category error.  What some sources call “Buddhist statues” were often Marian or Christian images intentionally disguised as local figures for survival. This was camouflage, not confession of Buddhist worship.  The modern demographic collapse on islands like Ikitsuki, where recent reports estimate under 100 elderly practitioners, is a sociological fact, not proof that these families all went to hell.  Your sweeping moral verdict is theologically rash and historically uninformed. Historical fidelity under persecution deserves respect, not ridicule.

    PS: Statements like “if you cease to practice the Faith, you cease to be Catholic” border on Pelagianism because they ignore God’s grace, the indelible mark of baptism, and the reality that the Faith can be preserved even under centuries of persecution without priests.

    Yes, not all the hidden Christians lost the Faith. And yes, God preserves those under such trying circuмstances.
    However, if one is delusional as to think THEY are in such a situation TODAY, counting on God's help to miraculously preserve their Faith despite the existence of plenty of great Traditional chapels to do the job, they can and should expect no help. God isn't going to step in and save one from his own stupidity, just because a man decided (foolishly) to follow bad advice, like the Home Aloneism of a Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer.

    If you find yourself in persecution, you can trust in God's help.
    If you place YOURSELF in a situation on purpose where you will be persecuted -- you will be "on your own" or required to win on your own strength -- which means you are toast. Without God's grace to sustain you, human beings can't overcome their nature regarding things like torture.

    That is my main point.

    My second point is that by bringing up "the Hidden Christians" so often, it tends to downplay the importance of PRACTICING the Faith. The Faith is a habit of life. If you never "do" Catholic, you will eventually cease to BE Catholic. Unless you are forced to not "do" Catholic, because you're in a gulag or something. In which case, you can count on God to sustain you.

    My third point: you need to understand the wisdom of "fake it till you make it". That is absolutely a "thing" or reality of human nature. You start out honoring a special buddhist-looking statue, understanding it to be the Blessed Mother in disguise (wink, wink). But eventually you, or your kids, lose the "subtext" and start soaking up some serious Buddhism. It's how human beings work. Habits for beliefs, and vice-versa. It's one of the principles of the Faith, and the Traditional Movement. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. "The law of prayer is the law of belief." Or, the way you pray is the way you believe.

    When you stop genuflecting to the Blessed Sacrament for decades, eventually you lose belief in the Real Presence. We have proof now, with the Novus Ordo! That is precisely what happened. And it should come as no surprise to anyone with wisdom.
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Hidden Christians were no prize!
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 01:26:03 AM »
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  • Yes, not all the hidden Christians lost the Faith. And yes, God preserves those under such trying circuмstances.
    However, if one is delusional as to think THEY are in such a situation TODAY, counting on God's help to miraculously preserve their Faith despite the existence of plenty of great Traditional chapels to do the job, they can and should expect no help. God isn't going to step in and save one from his own stupidity, just because a man decided (foolishly) to follow bad advice, like the Home Aloneism of a Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer.

    If you find yourself in persecution, you can trust in God's help.
    If you place YOURSELF in a situation on purpose where you will be persecuted -- you will be "on your own" or required to win on your own strength -- which means you are toast. Without God's grace to sustain you, human beings can't overcome their nature regarding things like torture.

    That is my main point.

    My second point is that by bringing up "the Hidden Christians" so often, it tends to downplay the importance of PRACTICING the Faith. The Faith is a habit of life. If you never "do" Catholic, you will eventually cease to BE Catholic. Unless you are forced to not "do" Catholic, because you're in a gulag or something. In which case, you can count on God to sustain you.

    My third point: you need to understand the wisdom of "fake it till you make it". That is absolutely a "thing" or reality of human nature. You start out honoring a special buddhist-looking statue, understanding it to be the Blessed Mother in disguise (wink, wink). But eventually you, or your kids, lose the "subtext" and start soaking up some serious Buddhism. It's how human beings work. Habits for beliefs, and vice-versa. It's one of the principles of the Faith, and the Traditional Movement. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. "The law of prayer is the law of belief." Or, the way you pray is the way you believe.

    When you stop genuflecting to the Blessed Sacrament for decades, eventually you lose belief in the Real Presence. We have proof now, with the Novus Ordo! That is precisely what happened. And it should come as no surprise to anyone with wisdom.



    Its an interesting historical question about these Japanese Catholics. Also interesting to look at the morality of having statues that look like Buddha, and what the collective understanding of the villagers were in relation to them were.

    But my question to you Matthew is, how far do you stretch this "go to a traditional chapel"?
    Shouldn't the question be, "where is there a chapel that stands against the errors of the present crises while holding to the fullness of the Faith?"

    I understand that not having regular access to Mass can make staying in a state of grace more difficult, but that's the crises in the Church.

    The problem with Pfeiffer and Hewko is that they really mean "If you're not with us", stay at home. But that's ignoring all our seven bishops, and all of our Mass centers across the United states from CT all down to LA and up to MN. It's bonkers. Resistance Mass centers everywhere that they just treat like they aren't Catholic.