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Author Topic: Hermeneutic of Continuity  (Read 1706 times)

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Offline Hermes

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Hermeneutic of Continuity
« on: August 15, 2021, 08:40:51 PM »
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  • I would like to dedicate this thread to the main issues that stand in the way of a realistic application of the “hermeneutic of continuity.”

    What are the teachings in the Second Vatican Council that are absolutely and positively impossible to reconcile with pre-conciliar teachings? What are some authoritative teachings of the post-conciliar hierarchy that are irreconcilable with past teachings? Must they be interpreted in a manner of discontinuity?

    I will start with a few.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #1 on: August 15, 2021, 08:41:58 PM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio # 3:

    "Moreover some, and even most, of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too."

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #2 on: August 15, 2021, 08:42:31 PM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio (# 3):

    "It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.  For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church."

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #3 on: August 15, 2021, 08:42:59 PM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio # 3:

    "Moreover some, and even most, of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too."

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #4 on: August 15, 2021, 08:44:19 PM »
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  •  

    Unitatis redintegratio (# 3):

    "It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.  For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.“

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2021, 08:48:01 PM »
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  • Are the above mentioned incompatible with these pre-conciliar teachings?

    Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:

    "We ask: In the first place, whether you and the Church of the Armenians which is obedient to you, believe that all those who in baptism have received the same Catholic faith, and afterwards have withdrawn and will withdraw in the future from the communion of THIS SAME ROMAN CHURCH, WHICH ONE ALONE IS CATHOLIC, are schismatic and heretical, if they remain obstinately separated from the faith of this Roman Church."

     

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:

    "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, AND ALIEN TO THE CHURCH, WHOEVER WOULD RECEDE IN THE LEAST DEGREE FROM ANY POINT OF DOCTRINE PROPOSED BY HER AUTHORITATIVE MAGISTERIUM."

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302:

    "With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one."

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: "The Church alone offers to the human race that religion - that state of absolute perfection - which He wished, as it were, to be incorporated in it.  And it alone supplies those means of salvation which accord with the ordinary counsels of Providence."

     

    Pope Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: "The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society.  Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation."

     

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra:

    "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives ..."

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #6 on: August 15, 2021, 08:53:05 PM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio (# 3):

    "It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.  For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.“

    Absolutely irreconcilable to Cantate Domino.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #7 on: August 15, 2021, 08:53:51 PM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio # 3:

    "Moreover some, and even most, of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too."

    Absolutely irreconcilable to Unam Sanctam & Cantate Domino.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #8 on: August 15, 2021, 08:55:13 PM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio # 3:

    "Moreover some, and even most, of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too."

    Absolutely irreconcilable to Unam Sanctam & Cantate Domino.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #9 on: August 15, 2021, 08:56:21 PM »
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  • Important note:

    If one accepts BOD & BOB and rejects EENS in the “Feeneyite” interpretation, it would be possible to reconcile the above teachings.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #10 on: August 16, 2021, 10:04:21 AM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio # 3:

    "Moreover some, and even most, of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too."

    Absolutely irreconcilable to Unam Sanctam & Cantate Domino.

    You are reading into UR what it does not say.  If you rephrase the above quotation as a negative proposition, rather than a positive, you see not only true see that it is true, but you see that what it teaches cannot be denied.  For example:

    "Moreover some, and even most of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life t the Church itself cannot exist outside the visible boundaries: the bible cannot exist outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, nether can the life of grace, faith, hope and charity, of the gifts of the Holy Ghost."

    Can the bible exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church? Of course it can.

    Can the life of grace, faith, hope and charity, exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church?  Of course it can.    In fact, the proposition that " Outside of the Church, no grace is granted" (Denz 1379) is condemned.

    Baptism administered outside the visible boundaries of the Catholics Church, provided the correct form is used) is valid. Therefore, those who receive baptism outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church (certainly children below the age of discretion), receive grace, faith, hope and charity, through the sacrament.

    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #11 on: August 16, 2021, 10:18:03 AM »
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  • Unitatis redintegratio (# 3):

    "It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.  For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.“

    Absolutely irreconcilable to Cantate Domino.

    Once again, if you rephrase the proposition as a negative you realize that it cannot be denied:

    "It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.  For the Spirit of Christ REFRAINS from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.“

    Within non-Catholic churches and communities children below the age of reason are baptized and die before attaining the age of reason.  By virtue of the baptism they received in these non-Catholic churches and communities, they are saved.  Therefore, to say the Spirit of Christ refrains from using them in the mystery of salvation is evidently false.  And if that is false, the contrary must be true, namely, that "For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation."

    Never trust; always verify.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #12 on: August 16, 2021, 10:47:51 AM »
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  • Important note:

    If one accepts BOD & BOB and rejects EENS in the “Feeneyite” interpretation, it would be possible to reconcile the above teachings.

    This is a very astute observation, one that I have been arguing for a long time here.  I would have no problem accepting all of Vatican II (the NOM being a separate issue) if I accepted a loose interpretation of BoD that many Traditional Catholics do in fact hold.  THAT is why I keep arguing that it's THE crucial question to answer with regard to this crisis and Vatican II.  But too many people don't think it matters.  They're wrong.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #13 on: August 16, 2021, 10:55:45 AM »
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  • "Moreover some, and even most of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life t the Church itself cannot exist outside the visible boundaries: the bible cannot exist outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, nether can the life of grace, faith, hope and charity, of the gifts of the Holy Ghost."

    Can the life of grace, faith, hope and charity, exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church?  Of course it can.    In fact, the proposition that " Outside of the Church, no grace is granted" (Denz 1379) is condemned.

    Baptism administered outside the visible boundaries of the Catholics Church, provided the correct form is used) is valid. Therefore, those who receive baptism outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church (certainly children below the age of discretion), receive grace, faith, hope and charity, through the sacrament.

    bzzzzt.  That Denzinger quote is speaking of actual grace, not sanctifying grace, i.e. "life of grace, faith, hope and charity".  You should know better than this.

    Those such as infants who receive the Sacrament of Baptism instrumentally by the hand of non-Catholics are in fact members of the Catholic Church.  You can have an atheist validly baptize, but the conferral of the effect of the Sacrament is solely upon those within the Church.  So the LIFE of grace that results from the Sacrament is in a subject who is inside the Catholic Church.  There can be instrumental causes of grace coming from sources that are outside the Church, but the life of grace can only exist in those who are inside the Church, and to declare otherwise is in direct contradiction of Catholic EENS dogma.  So the "visible" elements part I'll grant, according to this scenario, but not the sanctifying grace that comes with it.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #14 on: August 16, 2021, 11:01:01 AM »
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  • This is a very astute observation, one that I have been arguing for a long time here.  I would have no problem accepting all of Vatican II (the NOM being a separate issue) if I accepted a loose interpretation of BoD that many Traditional Catholics do in fact hold. 

    There's you problem, because what you call a loose interpretation of BOD is what was taught in all the manuals prior to the Council.     Put differently, if you accept BOD as it was taught in all the manuals prior to Vatican II, you would have no problem accepting what the Council teaches. You rejection of the Council, therefore, is due to your rejection of the pre-conciliar teaching.
    Never trust; always verify.