Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Hermeneutic of Continuity  (Read 2722 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 15180
  • Reputation: +6241/-924
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2021, 12:04:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Half in and half out" are your words.  What the Church teaches is that a person can be united to the Church perfectly or imperfectly, and the Body/Soul terminology has been used for centuries as a means of explaining it.  Here is how Bellarmine does so:  


    Bellarmine says a person can be united to the Soul but not the Body (in re), yet possess the state of grace (charity), which is precisely what you said "is not Catholic."  And what Bellarmine wrote about can be found all throughout the pre-Vatican II theology manuals.
    You are quoting St. Robert, but he is not the Church, so to say the Church teaches that one may belong to one or the other, or one but not the other is pure speculation from, in this case, St. Robert, not the Church. And finding it all throughout pre V2  theology manuals is only purely speculative ideas from theologians, and again, not from the Church.
     
    Meanwhile, the actual Church's teaching does teach the thrice defined dogma that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (soul and body, which are inseparable). The reason that it is impossible to in any way attain salvation without being inside the Church, is because that is contrary to the dogma.

    Anytime you read the error that that there are adults who are not in the Catholic Church through no fault of their own, you are reading error, you are reading that which is contrary to the doctrine of the Divine Providence, no matter who says it or where it comes from. The error on top of that error is that one may belong to the soul of the Church and not even know it, and the body in voto.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Durango77

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 217
    • Reputation: +110/-76
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #46 on: August 17, 2021, 12:20:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The hierarchy has never given an authoritative interpretation of that passage, because no interpretation has been needed.
    What's obvious is that the teaching itself is true, and that rejecting it results in at least two implicit heresies.

    They have never given an interpretation because they are modernists.  It means one thing when an sspx human reads it, and another when a no Catholic reads it, and another when an atheist or a protestant reads it.  Which is by design.


    Offline Hermes

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 971
    • Reputation: +401/-63
    • Gender: Male
    • Ollo vae
      • Patristics
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #47 on: August 17, 2021, 12:56:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I have two questions: What is required to be saved?  And what does it mean to be within the Catholic Church?

    Mystici Corporis Christi:

    “Actually, only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. ‘For in one spirit’ says the Apostle, ‘were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.’ As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.”

    Dr Ludwig Ott explains:

    “According to [the encyclical letter Mystici Corporis Christi] three conditions are required for membership of the Church: a) The valid reception of the Sacrament of Baptism. b) The profession of the true Faith. c) Participation in the Communion of the Church. By the fulfilment of these three conditions one subjects oneself to the threefold office of the Church, the sacerdotal office (Baptism), the teaching office (Confession of Faith), and the pastoral office (obedience to Church authority).”

    Mgr Van Noort explains further:

    “The unity of faith which Christ decreed without qualification consists in this, that everyone accepts the doctrines presented for belief by the Church’s teaching office. In fact our Lord requires nothing other than the acceptance by all of the preaching of the apostolic college, a body which is to continue forever; or, what amounts to the same thing, of the pronouncements of the Church’s teaching office, which He Himself set up as the rule of faith. And the essential unity of faith definitely requires that everyone hold each and every doctrine clearly and distinctly presented for belief by the Church’s teaching office; and that everyone hold these truths explicitly or at least implicitly, i.e., by acknowledging the authority of the Church which teaches them.”

    Pope Leo XIII, in his encyclical letter Satis Cognitum, authoritatively expounded on this:

    “Agreement and union of minds is the necessary foundation of this perfect concord amongst men, from which concurrence of wills and similarity of action are the natural results. Wherefore, in His divine wisdom, He ordained in His Church unity of faith; a virtue which is the first of those bonds which unite man to God, and whence we receive the name of the faithful – ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph 4: 5). That is, as there is one Lord and one baptism, so should all Christians, without exception, have but one faith. And so the Apostle St. Paul not merely begs, but entreats and implores Christians to be all of the same mind, and to avoid difference of opinions: ‘I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms amongst you, and that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment’ (I Cor 1:10). Such passages certainly need no interpreter; they speak clearly enough for themselves. Besides, all who profess Christianity allow that there can be but one faith. It is of the greatest importance and indeed of absolute necessity, as to which many are deceived, that the nature and character of this unity should be recognized. And, as We have already stated, this is not to be ascertained by conjecture, but by the certain knowledge of what was done; that is by seeking for and ascertaining what kind of unity in faith has been commanded by Jesus Christ.”

    Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, 1336, ex cathedra: “By this Constitution, which will remain valid for perpetuity, We define with apostolic authority that, according to the universal ordering of God, [i.] the souls of all holy men who departed from this world before the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, [ii.] as also those of the holy Apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died following their reception of the sacred baptism of Christ, in whom nothing was to be purged when they departed, nor should be when they depart in the future, or if there was at that time, or should be, anything to be purged in the same, then, when they shall have been purged after their death, [iii.] and the souls of children reborn in that same baptism of Christ and of those to be baptized when they shall have been baptized, dying before the use of their free will, immediately after their death and the aforesaid purgation of those who stood in need of a purgation of this kind, even before the resumption of their bodies and the General Judgment, following the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into Heaven, have been, are, and will be in Heaven, in the Kingdom of Heaven and in the Celestial Paradise with Christ…”

    Lastly Pope Boniface VIII Unam Sanctam:

    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline RomanTheo

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 327
    • Reputation: +164/-148
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #48 on: August 17, 2021, 01:50:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Mystici Corporis Christi:

    “Actually, only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. ... It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.”

    But sedevacantists are not united in government.  And according to Pius XII if they are not united in government they cannot be living in the unity of the body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.  How, then, can a sedevacantist be saved?


    Quote
    Lastly Pope Boniface VIII Unam Sanctam:

    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

    If being subject to the Roman Pontiff is "absolutely necessary for salvation," how can a sedevacantist be saved?  And in case you didn't notice, the dogma makes no exception for those who die during an interregnum.  

    To use Stubborn's reasoning, since this dogma is infallibly true, it must necessarily follow that Divine Providence will ensure that all those who are to be saved (the predestined) do not die during an interregnum.  


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 15180
    • Reputation: +6241/-924
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #49 on: August 17, 2021, 01:57:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • But sedevacantists are not united in government.  And according to Pius XII if they are not united in government they cannot be living in the unity of the body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.  How, then, can a sedevacantist be saved?


    If being subject to the Roman Pontiff is "absolutely necessary for salvation," how can a sedevacantist be saved?  And in case you didn't notice, the dogma makes no exception for those who die during an interregnum.  

    To use Stubborn's reasoning, since this dogma is infallibly true, it must necessarily follow that Divine Providence will ensure that all those who are to be saved (the predestined) do not die during an interregnum.  
    Amazing, you twist the meaning just like a Liberal RT. The sedes add "unless you do not believe the pope is the pope" to the end of the dogma, that's how they think they get around or out of it. For those who are not members of the Church, they cannot be saved since they do not even know of this requirement for salvation.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline RomanTheo

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 327
    • Reputation: +164/-148
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #50 on: August 17, 2021, 02:46:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Amazing, you twist the meaning just like a Liberal RT. The sedes add "unless you do not believe the pope is the pope" to the end of the dogma, that's how they think they get around or out of it.

    Logical thinking is certainly not your strong point.  The reason sedes think they get around it because they believe there is no Pope to submit to.  


    Quote
    Stubborn: For those who are not members of the Church, they cannot be saved since they do not even know of this requirement for salvation.

    Do you believe knowledge of this doctrine is require for salvation?


    Quote

    Stubborn: Anytime you read the error that that there are adults who are not in the Catholic Church through no fault of their own, you are reading error, you are reading that which is contrary to the doctrine of the Divine Providence, no matter who says it or where it comes from. The error on top of that error is that one may belong to the soul of the Church and not even know it, and the body in voto.

    For an adult to be in the Church requires knowledge that the Church exists.  Now, if it were contrary to Divine Providence for an adult to be outside the Church through no fault of their own, it would necessarily follow that God immediately infuse knowledge of the Church's existence into each person's intellect, as an infused species, the moment they became an adult.    

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47780
    • Reputation: +28263/-5292
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #51 on: August 17, 2021, 03:10:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Lastly Pope Boniface VIII Unam Sanctam:

    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

    Right, and we add to this that the Council of Trent defined that only those who have received the Sacrament of Baptism are subject to the Roman Pontiff, to the exclusion of catechumens.

    One of the toughest hurdles for BoD theology is the EENS definition that states there is no salvation outside the Church "of the faithful", fidelium.  Msgr. Fenton acknowledges that this technical theological term, fideles, excludes Catechumens.  He tries to save BoD by asserting that people can be within the Church of the faithful without actually being one of the faithful ... a huge stretch.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47780
    • Reputation: +28263/-5292
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #52 on: August 17, 2021, 03:12:53 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • But sedevacantists are not united in government.

    Neither were the Catholics during the Great Western schism MATERIALLY united in government, but only formally by professing subjection in principle to a Roman Pontiff.  Some theologians have speculated that the See may have been vacant the entire time.  Per Trent, all the Baptized are subject to the Roman Pontiff, and they must also profess adherence to the Pontiff to formally retain that subjection which is required for salvation.  This element can remain whether or not there happens to be an actual Roman Pontiff on the See at any given moment in history.

    For all your arguing that Vatican II teaches no error, Vatican II in fact says that those who are not in subjection to the Roman Pontiff materially, such as Protestants, are still within the Church of Christ due to lack of culpability for the original sin of schism.  So Vatican II openly rejects your assertion.


    Offline Hermes

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 971
    • Reputation: +401/-63
    • Gender: Male
    • Ollo vae
      • Patristics
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #53 on: August 17, 2021, 03:25:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Neither were the Catholics during the Great Western schism MATERIALLY united in government, but only formally by professing subjection in principle to a Roman Pontiff.  Some theologians have speculated that the See may have been vacant the entire time.  Per Trent, all the Baptized are subject to the Roman Pontiff, and they must also profess adherence to the Pontiff to formally retain that subjection which is required for salvation.  This element can remain whether or not there happens to be an actual Roman Pontiff on the See at any given moment in history.

    For all your arguing that Vatican II teaches no error, Vatican II in fact says that those who are not in subjection to the Roman Pontiff materially, such as Protestants, are still within the Church of Christ due to lack of culpability for the original sin of schism.  So Vatican II openly rejects your assertion.

    Well put.

    The interregnum objection put forth by RT and the straw men of Stubborn are pilpul red herrings designed to distract from the larger issues at hand.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 15180
    • Reputation: +6241/-924
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #54 on: August 17, 2021, 04:04:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Logical thinking is certainly not your strong point.  The reason sedes think they get around it because they believe there is no Pope to submit to. 
    Permit me to to explain in a bit more detail for you, this is how the sedes understand the dogma: "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff unless you do not believe the Roman Pontiff is the Roman Pontiff".


    Do you believe knowledge of this doctrine is require for salvation?
    I think so, but whether they have explicit knowledge of this particular doctrine or not, non-Catholics do not believe this is even a requirement, it is a fact that nearly all non-Catholics vehemently reject the whole idea, as such, no way can they ever be saved.


    For an adult to be in the Church requires knowledge that the Church exists.  Now, if it were contrary to Divine Providence for an adult to be outside the Church through no fault of their own, it would necessarily follow that God immediately infuse knowledge of the Church's existence into each person's intellect, as an infused species, the moment they became an adult.
    No, that does not necessarily follow. First because if there are one or two here and there who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church, they will not make it because God gave them an intellect and the use of reason precisely in order to find out about Him. That's why we are all created, to know love and serve Him in this world so as to be happy with Him in the next. They choose to not use these things for their intended purpose, unto their own destruction.

    Next, those adults who are outside the Church are outside because of their own free will, that's where they want to be. To prove this, simply go tell anyone who is outside of the Church that they must enter the Church to attain salvation, and you will soon see for yourself.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #55 on: August 17, 2021, 05:45:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not an invisible Church, but two ways of belonging to the one visible Church.  Here is the full quote that I partially quoted above Bellarmine, a saint and Doctor of the Church, which he bases on the teaching of St. Augustine, another saint and Doctor of the Church
    For the others reading this, here again is the  cut and paste from my archives that the writer above ignores to believe what he wants to believe, that people who do not want to be baptized or Catholics can be saved  by belonging to an invisible Church:

    The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost. It is not an invisible extension of the mystical body which includes the unbaptized.  A man can be either inside the Church or outside the Church. He can be either inside or outside the Body. There isn’t a third realm in which the Church exists – an invisible Soul of the Church. These two dogmas are clear on this, I really do not need to say anything more:
     
     Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in error... It is assuredly impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”
     
     Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #56 on: August 17, 2021, 05:53:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • More cut and paste from my archive:  

    The writer who calls himself RT,  as with 99.99% of all BODers, will never be convinced of even limiting "his BOD" to the BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri, for his real belief is the same as The SSPV quote below, not really a belief, but an unbelief:
     
     The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”
     
     
     That quote needs to be updated to address a defined BOD, the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas. Below is what  99% of BODers really believe TODAY concerning the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas (and of course what the writer above believes):
     
     
    “With the strict, literal interpretation of the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who do not have explicit desire to be baptized or explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation ( the Divinity of Jesus Christ) .  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-believers - Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews.... who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    Offline Hermes

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 971
    • Reputation: +401/-63
    • Gender: Male
    • Ollo vae
      • Patristics
    Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity
    « Reply #57 on: August 23, 2021, 03:42:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • O Fortuna
    Velut luna