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Author Topic: Heresy  (Read 2194 times)

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Offline Phyllo

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Heresy
« on: June 11, 2014, 03:41:28 PM »
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  • Hi,

    I was talking to my BIL today who watches EWTN.  He said that Mother Angelica said that we were taught heresy when we were taught that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  I understand that Mother Angelica is sick so this broadcast must have been a repeat.

    So my question---have we been taught heresy all those years back?  As far as I know that teaching of the church as never changed.  Maybe not preached as much since VaticanII but still in force.

    Any comments or thoughts?
    Thanks


    Offline soulguard

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    Heresy
    « Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 04:06:00 PM »
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  • And you think that you get the truth from the novus ordo church... WHY?


    Offline ihsv

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    Heresy
    « Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 04:20:56 PM »
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  • Mother Angelica kind of shot herself in the foot there.  If there is salvation outside the Church, you clearly don't have to believe what the Church teaches in order to gain entry into heaven.  Sooo... who cares if its heresy or not?
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    Heresy
    « Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 04:49:23 PM »
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  • An infallibly defined teaching is now heresy?   That's not only illogical, but by definition impossible, isn't it?   Perhaps he misunderstood?    

    Moreso, SG is correct - the novus ordo sect is not the best place to learn Catholicism.


    Offline Phyllo

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    Heresy
    « Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 04:55:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    And you think that you get the truth from the novus ordo church... WHY?


    No I don't.  That is why I have sought out a TLM in my area and thank God I have found one.  I can only hope that the priest is not transferred.


    Offline TKGS

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    Heresy
    « Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 05:04:13 PM »
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  • Mother Angelica is not sick.  She is alive and, last reports, healthy.  She gave up control of EWTN for various reasons in connection with Conciliar church authorities and orders.  EWTN does not let her anywhere near the network productions.  All shows which feature her that are broadcast are shows old shows that have been checked to ensure that they do not overly offend the Conciliar authorities.

    Did she actually say what is alleged?  I don't know.  I does not seem in character based on what I've heard about her, but I really don't know much about her other that what I've noted above.  In any event, EWTN is certainly not Catholic today and it had great problems in the past as far as doctrine is concerned.  

    Offline Phyllo

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    Heresy
    « Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 05:28:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta
    An infallibly defined teaching is now heresy?   That's not only illogical, but by definition impossible, isn't it?   Perhaps he misunderstood?    

    Moreso, SG is correct - the novus ordo sect is not the best place to learn Catholicism.



    I hope he misunderstood.  I think if that was actually said  some one at the time would have not let the remark pass without comment.

    I am a firm believer in John 6--unless you eat my body and drink my blood you don't have eternal life in you.  Only the Catholic Church has the Real Presence.

    I have been told that false religions(to me they are all religions that are not Catholic) have a way to heaven but Catholics get there faster because of the sacraments.  God sees what is in their heart.  I think that is relativism.  So under that premise a JW who does not believe in the Trinity or the Real Presence, but is a good person, God knows what is in their heart so they too can get into heaven.  That to me is nonsense.  Am I wrong or am I being to harsh, judgmental?

    Comments welcome or instruction where I am wrong.

    Thanks

    Offline Phyllo

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    Heresy
    « Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 05:38:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Mother Angelica is not sick.  She is alive and, last reports, healthy.  She gave up control of EWTN for various reasons in connection with Conciliar church authorities and orders.  EWTN does not let her anywhere near the network productions.  All shows which feature her that are broadcast are shows old shows that have been checked to ensure that they do not overly offend the Conciliar authorities.

    Did she actually say what is alleged?  I don't know.  I does not seem in character based on what I've heard about her, but I really don't know much about her other that what I've noted above.  In any event, EWTN is certainly not Catholic today and it had great problems in the past as far as doctrine is concerned.  


    I agree.   I heard that also about her being made to give up control.  I was under the impression that Mother was sick.  Maybe that is what I heard because they wanted her off EWTN.  I don't watch it myself.

    I read a book awhile back that I think had the title of What Happened to EWTN or something like that.  I made the mistake of mentioning it on another "catholic" forum and was yelled at for even bringing up the book.  I was told by a poster that I should be banned immediately.  The book talked about what you mentioned above.  About the reasons why Mother gave up control of EWTN. I believe that she was forced out after Vatican II.  At least that is what I got out of the book if I remember correctly.


    Offline TKGS

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    Heresy
    « Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 06:32:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Phyllo
    I agree.   I heard that also about her being made to give up control.  I was under the impression that Mother was sick.  Maybe that is what I heard because they wanted her off EWTN.  I don't watch it myself.


    Oh, she was sick for a period of time.  It was during this time that control of EWTN was taken from her.  As far as I know, she was very sick and the reports were that she was near death.  She recovered.  Less than a year ago (or maybe a little more than a year ago) someone who visited the EWTN compound in Alabama told me she saw her leading the rosary with the sisters and appeared to be absolutely fine for an elderly lady.

    Quote from: Phyllo
    I read a book awhile back that I think had the title of What Happened to EWTN or something like that.  I made the mistake of mentioning it on another "catholic" forum and was yelled at for even bringing up the book.  I was told by a poster that I should be banned immediately.  The book talked about what you mentioned above.  About the reasons why Mother gave up control of EWTN. I believe that she was forced out after Vatican II.  At least that is what I got out of the book if I remember correctly.


    The book is ETWN:  A Network Gone Wrong by Christopher Ferrara.  It is a good book.  Mr. Ferrara is an excellent writer when he sticks to facts and this book is chuck full of facts about the network.  He reports what has been said and is said on the network.

    It's too bad Mr. Ferrara doesn't stick to that kind of writing because when he starts writing about theological things or sedevacantists, his abilities go right out the window as he starts making things up and erecting straw men everywhere.

    Offline Phyllo

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    Heresy
    « Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 08:00:58 PM »
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  • Thanks for the correct name of the book.  

    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Heresy
    « Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 01:48:44 AM »
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  • Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    "He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ...Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953

    Many modernists, like Pope John Paul 2, misrepresent the EENS dogma in a very liberal way. It is important to remember that modernists don't just openly deny revealed dogmas, but also misrepresent them. We must interpret dogmas in the same sense and meaning as the orthodox Fathers of the Church.
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life


    Offline Phyllo

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    Heresy
    « Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 05:33:49 AM »
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  • MarylandTrad

    Thanks for the quotes from the Popes.  I printed them out to show the Catholics who tell me that there is salvation outside the Church.

    Offline Phyllo

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    Heresy
    « Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 05:47:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: MarylandTrad
    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    "He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ...Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953

    Many modernists, like Pope John Paul 2, misrepresent the EENS dogma in a very liberal way. It is important to remember that modernists don't just openly deny revealed dogmas, but also misrepresent them. We must interpret dogmas in the same sense and meaning as the orthodox Fathers of the Church.


    You stopped at Pope Pius the XII.  I guess the popes from Pius to Pope Francis have either not said there is no salvation outside the church or misinterpreted the dogma.?
    Thanks again

    Offline Cantarella

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    Heresy
    « Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 11:33:45 AM »
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  • Here, Phylo add to your list:

    THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

    Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202): “[The Church] is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them… We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come… Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.” (Against Heresies , Book III)

    Origen (died A.D. 254): “Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved.” (In Iesu Nave homiliae )

    Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): “He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.’ Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ.” (Unity of the Catholic Church )

    “He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.” (Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Latina , Father Migne)

    “Nay, though they should suffer death for the confession of the Name, the guilt of such men is not removed even by their blood…No martyr can he be who is not in the Church.” (Ancient Christian Writers )

    Bishop Firmilean (died A.D. 269): “What is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the ѕуηαgσgυєs of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church.” (Anti-Nicene Fathers )

    Lactantius (died A.D. 310): “It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation.” (The Divine Institutes )

    Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died A.D. 386): “Abhor all heretics…heed not their fair speaking or their mock humility; for they are serpents, a `brood of vipers.’ Remember that, when Judas said `Hail Rabbi,’ the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and shun the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit, for whom there is no pardon. For what fellowship have you with men without hope. Let us confidently say to God regarding all heretics, `Did I not hate, O Lord, those who hated Thee, and did I not pine away because of Your enemies?’ For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written, `I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.’ Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and death. Let us shun those from whom God turns away.” (The Fathers of the Church )

    Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): “Where Peter is therefore, there is the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life eternal. …Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the name and do not have the reward.” (The Fathers of the Church )

    Bishop Niceta of Remesiana (died A.D. 415): “He is the Way along which we journey to our salvation; the Truth, because He rejects what is false; the Life, because He destroys death. …All who from the beginning of the world were, or are, or will be justified – whether Patriarchs, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or Prophets, whether Apostles or martyrs, or any others – make up one Church, because they are made holy by one faith and way of life, stamped with one Spirit, made into one Body whose Head, as we are told, is Christ. I go further. The angels and virtues and powers in heaven are co-members in this one Church, for, as the Apostle teaches us, in Christ `all things whether on the earth or in the heavens have been reconciled.’ You must believe, therefore, that in this one Church you are gathered into the Communion of Saints. You must know that this is the one Catholic Church established throughout the world, and with it you must remain in unshaken communion. There are, indeed, other so called `churches’ with which you can have no communion. …These `churches’ cease to be holy, because they were deceived by the doctrines of the devil to believe and behave differently from what Christ commanded and from the tradition of the Apostles.” (The Fathers of the Church )

    Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): “As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church’s enemies are also my enemies.” (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology )

    Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )

    Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jєωs, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicuм )

    St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron )

    Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): “There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae )

    Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): “Outside of this communion – as outside of the ark of Noah – there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jєωs or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother.” (Catechismi Latini et Germanici )

    Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621): “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.” (De Sacramento Baptismi )

    It is clear as water that since always the Church has constantly and consistently taught that, if a person does not accept the faith of Christ and enter into His Church and subject himself to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, he cannot be saved. This salutary dogma has always been simple and direct, and needs not to be altered by adding unnecessary and subjective "if" "buts" or " ands", which is exactly what the modernists do.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Heresy
    « Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 11:36:44 AM »
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  • And from the Infallible Magisterium 3 dogmatic statements EXCATHEDRA:

    THE INFALLIBLE DOGMA OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

    "There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
    (Pope Boniface VIII, in the bull, Unam Sanctam, 1302)

    "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. 25:41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 1441).
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.