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Author Topic: Here Come the Female Deacons  (Read 2793 times)

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Offline ihsv

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Here Come the Female Deacons
« on: May 12, 2016, 09:58:37 AM »
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  • Francis to create commission to study female deacons in Catholic church

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    VATICAN CITY Pope Francis has announced he will create a commission to study the possibility of allowing women to serve as deacons in the Catholic church, signaling an historic openness to the possibility of ending the global institution’s practice of an all-male clergy.
    The pontiff indicated he would create such a commission during a meeting at the Vatican Thursday with some 900 leaders of the world’s congregations of Catholic women religious, who asked him during a question-and-answer session why the church excludes women from serving as deacons.

    The women religious, meeting with the pope as part of the triennial assembly of the International Union of Superiors General (UISG), told Francis that women had served as deacons in the early church and asked: “Why not construct an official commission that might study the question?”

    The pope responded that he had spoken about the matter once some years ago with a “good, wise professor” who had studied the use of female deacons in the early centuries of the church. Francis said it remained unclear to him what role such deacons had.

    “What were these female deacons?” the pontiff recalled asking the professor. “Did they have ordination or no?"

    “It was a bit obscure,” said Francis. "What was the role of the deaconess in that time?”

    “Constituting an official commission that might study the question?” the pontiff asked aloud. "I believe yes. It would do good for the church to clarify this point. I am in agreement. I will speak to do something like this.”

    “I accept,” the pope said later. “It seems useful to me to have a commission that would clarify this well."

    Francis’ openness to studying the possibility of women serving as deacons could represent an historic shift for the global Catholic church, which does not ordain women as clergy.

    Pope John Paul II claimed in his 1994 apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that “the Church has no authority whatsoever” to ordain woman as priests, citing Jesus’ choosing of only men to serve as his twelve apostles.

    Many church historians have said however that there is abundant evidence that women served as deacons in the early centuries of the church. The apostle Paul mentions such a woman, Phoebe, in his letter to the Romans.

    In the modern day, the Catholic church reinstituted the role of the permanent deacon following the reforms of the landmark 1962-65 Second Vatican Council. The role is generally open to married men who have reached the age of 35.  

    Such men are ordained, similar to priests, but can only conduct certain ministries in the church.

    While they cannot celebrate the Mass, they frequently lead prayer services, offer the sacrament of baptism, and even manage parishes as pastoral administrators in the absence of priests.

    Francis said Thursday that the professor he spoke with years ago had told him that female deacons had helped the early church particularly in baptizing women, when the practice of baptism at the time called for full immersion of the person’s naked body in water.?

    The pontiff’s words about female deacons were only part of a nearly 75-minute meeting with the members of the International Union of Superiors General, which represents nearly half a million Catholic women religious on five continents.

    The women religious asked the pope four notably strong questions, leading with an inquiry on how to better integrate women into the life of the global church.

    Quoting the pontiff’s frequent use of the phrase “feminine genius” to describe women’s role in the church, they noted that while the pope uses that phrase “women are excluded from the decision-making processes of the church” and from giving the homily at the Mass.

    Francis responded that the integration of women into the life of the church had been “very weak,” and said: “We must go forward.”

    The pope noted that the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has a woman serving as its second-in-command and said he wanted to appoint a particular woman to a similar position in another office but that she had been preferred to serve elsewhere.

    "For me, the elaboration of decisions is very important,” said the pontiff. “Not only the execution, but the elaboration; namely, that women, whether consecrated or lay, are inserted into the process of the discussion.”

    “Because [a] woman looks at life with true eyes,” said Francis. “We men cannot look at it so. The way of seeing problems, of seeing whatever thing is totally … different than men. They have to be complementary. In consultations, it is very important that women be there.”

    Francis said that it is a “theological/liturgical” issue of whether women can give the homily at Mass. He said there is “no problem” for women to give reflections or homilies at prayer services, but that during the Mass the priest is serving “in persona Christi” and is therefore the person to give the homily.

    The pontiff also told the women religious that the church needs to treat them with more respect, saying he has seen many times that sisters are made to do the “work of servitude and not service.”

    The pope told them that should someone “ask you to do something that is more of servitude than service, you are courageous to say no!"

    "Your vocation is for service, service to the church … but not of servitude,” said Francis.

    The pontiff then asked aloud: “What would the church miss if there were no more religious?”

    “We would lack Mary on the day of Pentecost,” he responded. "There is not a church without Mary. There is not Pentecost without Mary."

    "The consecrated woman is an icon of the church, an icon of Mary,” said Francis. “The priest is not an icon of the church, he is not an icon of Mary. He is an icon of the apostles, of the disciples ... but not of the church of Mary.”

    Francis also responded to a question from the women religious about how the church hierarchy often speaks “of” them but does not speak “with” them.

    "The hierarchy of the church must speak of you, but first must speak with you,” responded the pontiff. “This is for sure." Speaking of women religious without speaking with them, he continued: "This is not of the Gospel."

    The women religious also told the pontiff that many of their congregations are confronting the challenge to bring “newness” to religious life, but that often they feel “blocked” by limitations placed on them in the church’s Code of Canon Law. They asked if he could foresee changes to canon law that might help them.

    "You have spoken of newness in the positive sense,” responded the pope. “And the church is the majesty in this because it has had to change so, so much in its history.”

    But he told the women religious that changes must come after a process of discernment and discussion with the Holy Spirit, and not just in weighing pros and cons of the possible arguments.

    “Every change that you must do... enter into this process of discernment,” he said. “This will give you more freedom."

    Francis then said that canon law is meant to serve as a “juridical help” to the church and noted that the Code had been “changed, totally remade” two times in 20th century.

    "The Code is an instrument,” he said. “But I insist, never make a change without making a process of discernment.”

    The women religious also told the pope that "one of the obstacles" many of their orders face in the church is the request that they give money to the local churches where they serve, or that they offer money in order to receive the sacraments from priests.

    "The problem of money is a very important problem, in consecrated life and in diocesan life," responded Francis. "Do not ever forget that the Devil comes through the pockets, whether it is the pockets of the bishop or the congregation."

    The pope then said that access to the sacraments should be free to all.

    "Salvation is free," said the pontiff. "God comes to us freely."

    "If someone asks you for this, report this!" he exclaimed. "There is not salvation by payment!"

    Francis also told the woman religious that although they have committed themselves to live a life of Gospel poverty, they should not deprive themselves of having what is necessary to live.

    "The religious life is a way of poverty, not of ѕυιcιdє," said the pope.

    "If you do not have what is necessary to live, tell your bishop," he said. After many of the women religious laughed out loud at that advice, Francis smiled and corrected himself: "Tell it to God: 'Give us today our daily bread.'"
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline TKGS

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 11:37:19 AM »
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  • And don't worry.  When female deacons are made in law by the Conciliar church, people will simply "resist" that too.  Question:  will the FSSP be able to "resist" deaconesses?  Will an integrated SSPX?  High Mass will never be the same, but at least we have a pope!!!


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 03:20:19 PM »
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  • I can think of a few trad women who would gladly volunteer to be a deaconESS.

    Offline Alexandrina1

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 04:51:48 PM »
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  • This papacy is a hot mess of a nightmare.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 05:03:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    I can think of a few trad women who would gladly volunteer to be a deaconESS.


    You mean you can think of a few Trad Catholic women who would look good in those novus ordo robes!  I agree!  I have had numerous conversations with my oldest son about how Traditional Catholic women are so pretty and we both think it's because modest women radiate beauty.  As for the deaconess part, I would bet most traditional Catholic women would never have anything to do with such nonsense.



    Offline magdalena

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 05:38:58 PM »
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  • That should come as no surprise; after all, the N.O. has altar girls, female lectors, extraordinary "ministers" of the Eucharist, and presiders over prayers services. I know a woman who was called celebrant, Robin. How long has it been since women have had their feet washed on Holy Thursday in the N.O?  
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42

    Offline TKGS

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 05:56:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    I can think of a few trad women who would gladly volunteer to be a deaconESS.


    No.  You can't.  Perhaps you know a few radical feminists who like the smells and bells of tradition but aren't actually traditional.  No "trad woman" would volunteer, gladly or otherwise, to be a deaconess.  

    Offline Alexandrina1

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 07:12:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: magdalena
    That should come as no surprise; after all, the N.O. has altar girls, female lectors, extraordinary "ministers" of the Eucharist, and presiders over prayers services. I know a woman who was called celebrant, Robin. How long has it been since women have had their feet washed on Holy Thursday in the N.O?  


    You mean ministresses of the Eucharist and Apostlettes? Altar serverettes?


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 07:14:01 PM »
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  • 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
    Quote
    Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.


    1 Timothy 2:12
    Quote
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Charlemagne

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 11:13:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35
    Quote
    Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.


    1 Timothy 2:12
    Quote
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.


    Boy, that Saint Paul was such a misogynist! :rolleyes:
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline TKGS

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 06:37:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    Quote from: ascent

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35
    Quote
    Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.


    1 Timothy 2:12
    Quote
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.


    Boy, that Saint Paul was such a misogynist! :rolleyes:


    Actually, I have heard sermons from the pulpit (when I was still a prisoner of the Novus Ordo) that said exactly that!


    Offline Matthew

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 12:42:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Charlemagne
    Quote from: ascent

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35
    Quote
    Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.


    1 Timothy 2:12
    Quote
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.


    Boy, that Saint Paul was such a misogynist! :rolleyes:


    Actually, I have heard sermons from the pulpit (when I was still a prisoner of the Novus Ordo) that said exactly that!


    Saying such things about the Catholic Church's own SAINT Paul, as well as doctrine contained in SACRED SCRIPTURE (that Canon of which was determined by the Catholic Church), makes one a PROTESTANT whether they know it or not.

    See, I don't summarily claim that everyone in the Novus Ordo is a protestant, a Roman protestant, or any other clever name. There are some in the Novus Ordo who A) still have the Faith and B) have decided in their Will to be Catholic -- they love and want Catholicism. Unfortunately their fallible human intellect doesn't have the wisdom/knowledge to know that they need to leave and become Traditional Catholic.

    Others, however, have lost the Faith or are losing it. And others barely tolerate the Catholic elements in the largely Protestant Novus Ordo service/Conciliar religion.

    Long story short, priests who are criticial of SAINT Paul in this manner are clearly part of those who have LOST the Faith, and are only part of the Novus Ordo/Conciliar Religion because of the protestant elements -- they actively fight against whatever Catholic elements remain.

    It's a fact that the Novus Ordo contains Catholic and Protestant elements. The question is: which ones do you seek out and enjoy? That determines what you really are.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 01:07:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Saying such things about the Catholic Church's own SAINT Paul, as well as doctrine contained in SACRED SCRIPTURE (that Canon of which was determined by the Catholic Church), makes one a PROTESTANT whether they know it or not.


    Worse.  Most Protestants believe that the Sacred Scriptures were essentially written by God and are infallible and therefore can contain no trace of misogyny in them.

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 02:59:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Matthew
    Saying such things about the Catholic Church's own SAINT Paul, as well as doctrine contained in SACRED SCRIPTURE (that Canon of which was determined by the Catholic Church), makes one a PROTESTANT whether they know it or not.


    Worse.  Most Protestants believe that the Sacred Scriptures were essentially written by God and are infallible and therefore can contain no trace of misogyny in them.


    Good point.

    They are worse than protestant. To be more accurate, I would call them white knight male feminists.

    But strictly speaking there are many errors in the Novus Ordo/Conciliar religion: Protestantism, Freemasonic principles, Communism, socialism, Modernism, feminism, secularism, Americanism, naturalism, and other errors.

    And the Indult groups would have us believe it's all about the Latin Mass. Ha!
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Here Come the Female Deacons
    « Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 03:24:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    I can think of a few trad women who would gladly volunteer to be a deaconESS.


    You mean you can think of a few Trad Catholic women who would look good in those novus ordo robes!  I agree!  I have had numerous conversations with my oldest son about how Traditional Catholic women are so pretty and we both think it's because modest women radiate beauty.  As for the deaconess part, I would bet most traditional Catholic women would never have anything to do with such nonsense.


    I said "trad" not "Trad Catholic".

    And you are correct--young traditional Catholic ladies radiate a pure and natural beauty.  And they have the sweetest temperaments.