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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42550 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #200 on: May 11, 2022, 10:31:59 AM »
Ok, that's what I thought.  So +Thuc's personal intentions are irrelevant, as long as the matter/form were valid (which I don't think anyone questions).  So this whole controversy is bunk.  Heiner strikes again with his stupidity.

On the other hand, when +Webster screwed up the prayers in consecrating Fr Pfeiffer, no amount of personal intention/willing/wishing on the part of +Webster could make up for the deficient prayers/intention of the Church. 

The Church's intention, which are part of the rites, because these come from Christ, are all that matter. 
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #201 on: May 11, 2022, 10:59:51 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2022, 10:27:32 AM
You could have a Satanist priest up there saying, "I don't intend to transubstantiate.  I don't intend to transubstantiate." but if he goes through and performs the Rite that the Church intends to effect transubstantiation, he certainly intended to do what the Church does, and the Church's intention for the effect is transubstantiation.
This is the exact example I had in mind. Lex orandi, lex credendi. I remember some EO guy on FE accusing me of thinking about the sacraments like they were magical spells because I made the same example about a Black Mass having a valid consecration (in an argument about the New Mass being evil).
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #202 on: May 11, 2022, 01:21:24 PM »
Quote from: DigitalLogos on May 11, 2022, 10:59:51 AM
This is the exact example I had in mind. Lex orandi, lex credendi. I remember some EO guy on FE accusing me of thinking about the sacraments like they were magical spells because I made the same example about a Black Mass having a valid consecration (in an argument about the New Mass being evil).

I think that one could make an argument that Black Masses are invalid because they're not really intending to do what the Church does.  If you offer Mass in a Catholic Church at a scheduled time, for example, you're performing a Catholic Mass.  But if you take it to some other venue and put all these Satanic circuмstances into the equation, that could vitiate what the Church intends to do with the Mass.  But it's debatable.
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #203 on: May 11, 2022, 03:43:02 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2022, 01:21:24 PM
I think that one could make an argument that Black Masses are invalid because they're not really intending to do what the Church does.  If you offer Mass in a Catholic Church at a scheduled time, for example, you're performing a Catholic Mass.  But if you take it to some other venue and put all these Satanic circuмstances into the equation, that could vitiate what the Church intends to do with the Mass.  But it's debatable.
It is debatable. I would say that since God tolerates sacrilegious liturgies among the Eastern Orthodox, Old Catholics, and (potentially) the Novus Ordo, all of which are an offense to Him; it's possible that He would tolerate a valid consecration in a Black Mass as well. But, that's beyond the scope of this discussion.
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Offline epiphany

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #204 on: May 11, 2022, 04:34:05 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2022, 09:34:07 AM
Not at all.  +Guerard des Lauriers and +Carmona/+Zamora lines are very solid.  There are a few nebulous ones out there where when asked about it +Thuc said he did not consecrate the person.  But +Thuc repeatedly reaffirmed these 3 consecrations and had Hiller/Heller as witnesses, and there are even some pictures.  They're not in doubt.

And, interestingly, the Palmar consecrations are very solid, and they even meet Bishop Kelly's made-up criteria for eliminating all doubt ... done publicly in front of many people, with competent assistants (pre-V2 ordained priests), certificates, etc.

From +des Lauriers -> +McKenna -> +Sanborn/+Neville ... totally solid
From +Carmona -> +Pivarunas -> +Dolan ... also solid

If anything, there are more questions about +Mendez y Gonzales -> +Kelly.  +Mendez had suffered a stroke not too long before the consecration where members of his family said that he was extremely confused and didn't recognized them.  I don't have any positive doubt, but there's a stronger negative doubt with this line than there is with the above-mentioned +Thuc lines.
I tried the Thuc route and got nothing but disappointment except one una cuм priest.
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