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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42574 times)

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #195 on: May 11, 2022, 08:56:40 AM »
There are 2 Thuc lines: Moises Carmona and Gerard des Lauriers.  Gerard des Lauriers consecrated in secret(?) and Moises Carmona consecrated openly with supplied jurisdiction. Epikea is mentioned. Bishop Pivarunas was consecrated under Carmona.

When I hear someone saying, oh, the Thuc line is not good or right, I question if they understand there are different Thuc lines.
Sure, with one being squishier than the next.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #196 on: May 11, 2022, 09:34:07 AM »
Sure, with one being squishier than the next.

Not at all.  +Guerard des Lauriers and +Carmona/+Zamora lines are very solid.  There are a few nebulous ones out there where when asked about it +Thuc said he did not consecrate the person.  But +Thuc repeatedly reaffirmed these 3 consecrations and had Hiller/Heller as witnesses, and there are even some pictures.  They're not in doubt.

And, interestingly, the Palmar consecrations are very solid, and they even meet Bishop Kelly's made-up criteria for eliminating all doubt ... done publicly in front of many people, with competent assistants (pre-V2 ordained priests), certificates, etc.

From +des Lauriers -> +McKenna -> +Sanborn/+Neville ... totally solid
From +Carmona -> +Pivarunas -> +Dolan ... also solid

If anything, there are more questions about +Mendez y Gonzales -> +Kelly.  +Mendez had suffered a stroke not too long before the consecration where members of his family said that he was extremely confused and didn't recognized them.  I don't have any positive doubt, but there's a stronger negative doubt with this line than there is with the above-mentioned +Thuc lines.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #197 on: May 11, 2022, 09:42:13 AM »
Did the Angelus Magazine in June 1982 make this up?

Yes, yes they did.  Nobody has ever found a source for this statement other than The Angelus article, and there are contrary statements made by +Thuc.  He regretted Palmar after Clemente came out as "Pope" but never actually said anything about withholding intention.  Only other statement from +Thuc was that he was once pressured into concelebrating a NOM but said he didn't join in the intention of the "con-celebrating" priests to consecrate.  So he was trying to spin that as a more passive participation in the NOM.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #198 on: May 11, 2022, 10:19:02 AM »
Quote
the ‘orders’ he had conferred were null and void because he had withheld all intention of conveying orders
Hold on.  When we're talking about traditional tridentine rites of ordination (or any tridentine sacrament) aren't those written/designed in such a way that the intention is PART of the prayer?  In other words, as long as the bishop is valid, and matter/form (i.e. sacramental prayers) are said/valid, then his personal intention (or lack of one) is irrelevant, no? 


Isn't the the whole point of sacramental rites?  To avoid the doubts of a cleric's personal intention?  Isn't the whole point that if the cleric says the sacramental prayers, THAT proves he has the right intention (i.e. the Church's intention)?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #199 on: May 11, 2022, 10:27:32 AM »
Hold on.  When we're talking about traditional tridentine rites of ordination (or any tridentine sacrament) aren't those written/designed in such a way that the intention is PART of the prayer?  In other words, as long as the bishop is valid, and matter/form (i.e. sacramental prayers) are said/valid, then his personal intention (or lack of one) is irrelevant, no? 

Yes, I absolutely agree with this opinion.  By performing the rite, the minister is doing WHAT the Church does.  And the notion of "internal intention" is widely misinterpreted.

I use this analogy.  I hold a loaded gun to someone's head, pull the trigger.  Meanwhile, in my mind I'm saying, "I don't want him to die.  I don't intend that he die."  But by pulling the trigger you DID intend for him to die.  Based on this warped definition of "formal intent," one would argue that he didn't really formally kill the person because he didn't intend for him to die.  Of course he had the intent.  When he willed and intended ("internally") the cause, then he also willed the effect.

You could have a Satanist priest up there saying, "I don't intend to transubstantiate.  I don't intend to transubstantiate." but if he goes through and performs the Rite that the Church intends to effect transubstantiation, he certainly intended to do what the Church does, and the Church's intention for the effect is transubstantiation.

This warped notion of "formal" has also polluted some approaches to moral theology, such as regarding the jab.  It's also been the root justification for EENS denial.  But this concept has been abused and misapplied for the past few centuries.