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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 24314 times)

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Offline augustineeens

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #180 on: February 01, 2022, 06:36:07 PM »
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  • There are 2 Thuc lines: Moises Carmona and Gerard des Lauriers.  Gerard des Lauriers consecrated in secret(?) and Moises Carmona consecrated openly with supplied jurisdiction. Epikea is mentioned. Bishop Pivarunas was consecrated under Carmona.

    When I hear someone saying, oh, the Thuc line is not good or right, I question if they understand there are different Thuc lines.
    Of course everyone understands there are different ones. The main point of the article is that Thuc's intentions cannot be trusted. He deliberately withheld his intentions in administering the sacraments on two different occasions. Both being self-admitted.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #181 on: February 01, 2022, 09:48:09 PM »
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  • Of course everyone understands there are different ones. The main point of the article is that Thuc's intentions cannot be trusted. He deliberately withheld his intentions in administering the sacraments on two different occasions. Both being self-admitted.
    No, I don't think he ever admitted that.  It's a lie that he admitted to simulating sacraments.  He denied ever simulating sacraments.  And his post-consecration actions would indicate that he didn't simulate nor ever admitted simulating the sacraments.  Just because someone with an ax to grind says he admitted something doesn't mean it is true that he admitted doing something.



    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #182 on: February 01, 2022, 11:49:05 PM »
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  • No, I don't think he ever admitted that.  It's a lie that he admitted to simulating sacraments.  He denied ever simulating sacraments.  And his post-consecration actions would indicate that he didn't simulate nor ever admitted simulating the sacraments.  Just because someone with an ax to grind says he admitted something doesn't mean it is true that he admitted doing something.
    He says he did:“So after the questionable ordinations [Palmar de Troya], Bishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc renounced his actions and published a letter saying that the ‘orders’ he had conferred were null and void because he had withheld all intention of conveying orders to the Palmar de Troya sect.” (Angelus Magazine, June 1982 edition – emphasis supplied)

    Did the Angelus Magazine in June 1982 make this up? If so, why did Thuc never rebuke the lie?

    "If there was rebuttal evidence to be found, that would be one thing, but there is no rebuttal evidence to be found anywhere. This absence alone speaks volumes.In the normal course of events, if any bishop was falsely charged with such a serious crime as simulating the Sacraments of the Church, one would expect a very loud and vocal denial of the accusations, followed by immediate demands for correction and retraction. Perhaps a defamation suit might even be in order. But in the case of Bishop Thuc, the record is absolutely silent. The article in the Angelus magazine was published two and one-half years before his death, and yet there is not a peep of protest against it to be found anywhere."



    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #183 on: February 01, 2022, 11:50:11 PM »
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  • He denied ever simulating sacraments. 
    Have you got any evidence for that?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #184 on: February 02, 2022, 12:15:54 PM »
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  • Have you got any evidence for that?

    In fact, in 1981, he issued the following declaration in a German magazine (though it's not a great translation):

    Quote
    Quote
    I testify to have done the ordinations of Palmar in complete lucidity.  I don't have anymore relations with Palmar after their chief nominated himself pope.  I disapprove of all that they are doing.  The declaration of Paul VI has been made without me; I heard of it only afterwards.  Given the 19.XII.1981 at Toulon in complete possession of all my faculties.

    source: https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-pfeiffer/msg709477/#msg709477  Thanks, Ladislaus!

    You can also read: http://www.thucbishops.com/Open_Letter_to_%20Bp_Kelly_FULL.pdf

    And you can read a summary of the research that Fr Cekada and Bishop Sanborn did when they investigated the Thuc consecrations: http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=60&catna

    There is no reasonable basis for continuing to spread the calumny that +Thuc simulated any sacrament much less simulated an episcopal consecration.



    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #185 on: February 02, 2022, 12:17:46 PM »
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  • I don't know why the Angelus Magazine printed that calumny against +Thuc.  But they certainly didn't do a good job of researching the issue.  They were wrong.

    Offline clarkaim

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #186 on: February 04, 2022, 04:45:20 PM »
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  • Fascinating.  So, why is Heiner so anti-CMRI all of a sudden?  It seems to me that Bishop Sanborn would be in agreement.  I think there is more to this than meets the eye.
    Can't answer for Heiner.  I only know what Bishop Sanborn said to ME.  CMRI priests are sound.    he did say he thinks they are a little soft on modesty issues.  he said it would b a mortal sin to attend resistance mass (one north of St. Mary's that my wife's family attend) because of the Una cuм issue

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #187 on: February 04, 2022, 04:59:23 PM »
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  • Have you got any evidence for that?
    "Yes"
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #188 on: February 04, 2022, 05:43:36 PM »
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  • "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #189 on: February 04, 2022, 07:51:42 PM »
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  • He says he did:“So after the questionable ordinations [Palmar de Troya], Bishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc renounced his actions and published a letter saying that the ‘orders’ he had conferred were null and void because he had withheld all intention of conveying orders to the Palmar de Troya sect.” (Angelus Magazine, June 1982 edition – emphasis supplied)

    Did the Angelus Magazine in June 1982 make this up? If so, why did Thuc never rebuke the lie?

    "If there was rebuttal evidence to be found, that would be one thing, but there is no rebuttal evidence to be found anywhere. This absence alone speaks volumes.In the normal course of events, if any bishop was falsely charged with such a serious crime as simulating the Sacraments of the Church, one would expect a very loud and vocal denial of the accusations, followed by immediate demands for correction and retraction. Perhaps a defamation suit might even be in order. But in the case of Bishop Thuc, the record is absolutely silent. The article in the Angelus magazine was published two and one-half years before his death, and yet there is not a peep of protest against it to be found anywhere."

    :laugh1: ... as if +Thuc read The Angelus.

    There are many times after the fact, when questioned or interviewed, that +Thuc averred that he performed the consecrations of +Guerard des Lauriers and +Carmona/+Zamora.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #190 on: May 11, 2022, 07:59:39 AM »
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  • "The CMRI’s laxity on this issue is only more troubling when compounded by their permissiveness in the creation of annulment tribunals. The SSPX has engaged in this sham for years, but it has been known for some time that some of the CMRI’s priests engage in the judging of marriage cases. But this is something that falls directly under the legal functions of the Church and does not fall under epikeia. No one currently possesses the authority to issue judgments in these marriage cases and so the best our clergy can do is investigate to give someone some sense of probability, but no more than that.
    In any case, the fact that even as late as 1968 there were only 338 annulments given for the entire United States that year should give helpful context in this regard.
    In our unfortunate situation, there is an easy and effective way for these people to solve their marital dilemmas: abstinence and chastity.  One should not risk a “re-marriage” if one’s “previous” marriage is doubtful or probably invalid."


    I already had an issue with the SSPX over this.
    If this is true then I am done with CMRI. 


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #191 on: May 11, 2022, 08:18:14 AM »
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  • This is not an opinion. It is a matter of fact that heretics reign in the material structures of the Church and where there is heresy there is no holiness, regardless of appearances. The Arians were known for their penances, prayers, zeal, and good works but it availed them for naught since they had no faith on account of their one single heresy.

    Also, yes, madame, a Catholic cannot be in communion with a heretic by divine law.
    Jupiter sounds an awful lot like Moran...

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #192 on: May 11, 2022, 08:22:48 AM »
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  • Oh dear God, help me, please. How many people are claiming to be Pope? :confused: What is the name of this supposed pope that died about 33 years ago? Was he in Rome?

    Are you part of the Schuckardt (sp?) crowd in Spokane, WA?

    Are you part of the group in Kansas that has their own "Pope?" (The guy in his basement--I think he called or calls himself "Pope Michael?"

    Are you part of the Old Catholic cult?

    Are you in the Palmar De Troya crowd?

    Are you part of the group in Quebec that has now branched off into the US, but they claim their own "Pope?"

    Are you part of the sub-group of Little Pebble cult--that goes along with
    something else?

    I have had friends mixed-up with all of these groups, except the first one of the 33 years ago "Pope." That's a new one for me.
    Sorry, but I cannot wrap my head around this Lad. I cannot.

    I have done my best to understand where you are coming from, but I don't think there is much hope for that.

    You are telling me that I need new Priests? I don't think so. I think they are the only ones keeping me from going off the deep end into leaving the Catholic Church and following the church of anyone that sets themselves up to be Pope just because they are convinced they are the ones with the "correct answer."

    Edit in: This leaves me with SSPX and FSSP. There is no way I am wandering down the path of "there is no Pope." NOPE, not gonna do it. Nor am I going to get caught up in "independent" chapels so quickly, for this same reason.

    God help us all.
    Good.  Don't go there.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #193 on: May 11, 2022, 08:30:18 AM »
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  • Anne: as long as anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ, says the adulterated New Order not mass, they are known by their fruits as heretics, enemies of the Church that Christ founded. This is Matthew 24 "abomination desolation" then Christ refers to Daniel prophet, the continual sacrifice of the Mass will come to an end, or nearly. 

    No tribunal is necessary, know them by their outward fruits.  All those who say this adulterated mass are excommunicated.  They excommunicated themselves, removed themselves by their own free will. 

    I will not follow their ways, and I can not say that I am in communion with them.  They are prayed for as enemies of Christ's Church.
    I believe you are wrong here, songbird.
    I am sure there are some NO priests who don't know better and are trying their best to say a respectful and holy mass.  

    "No tribunal is necessary"  Tribunal for what?  

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #194 on: May 11, 2022, 08:54:05 AM »
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  • Have you read up on the Thuc consecrations? I'd be careful with the CMRI.
    https://benedictinos.blog/2020/10/15/the-ministry-and-validity-of-mons-thuc/?amp=1

    I'd be careful with benedictinos.blog...