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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 24237 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #135 on: January 30, 2022, 09:41:49 AM »
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  • It's a mystery that we cannot really boil down to absolute facts. The conciliar church isn't exactly the True Church, but it's not completely separate either.

    As +ABL said, the modernists and conciliar church occupy the True Church. No one is required to believe this here, but some of us do. In this situation, we have to assume that the True Church is still in Rome, but currently occupied. But what does occupation mean?
    Although I believe it can be done, I don't believe we lay people are meant to boil it *all* down to absolute facts.

     It should be enough for us to know that the conciliar religion is not only not Catholic, it is anti-Catholic, this cannot be denied. Knowing this, is knowing that we should avoid everything that has anything to do with it. The reason so many choose to disbelieve that which they cannot deny, is due to their lack of conviction as a result of a lack of faith.

    +ABL was right, the modernists and conciliar church do occupy the True Church, Fr. Wathen puts it like this:

    "...the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who
    maintains membership within it can be saved..."


    What is a "fifth column?"
    Wiki puts it like this:
    "A fifth column is any group of people who undermine a larger group from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine. Forces gathered in secret can mobilize openly to assist an external attack." - describes the situation accurately imo.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #136 on: January 30, 2022, 12:44:45 PM »
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  • I do not think that Vatican II is a valid ecuмenical council of the Roman Catholic Church.

    That being said, as I mentioned in my response to RomanTheo, the primary issue of our current crisis is not Vatican II. This council can be interpreted in a way, commensurate to the machinations that gave birth to it, that is in continuity with Tradition due to the very ambiguous nature of its docuмents which were engineered to create weaponized nebulosity.

    The primary issue, rather, is that the post Vatican II “Popes,” ecclesiastical hierarchy, theologians, monastic orders, and the vast majority of the laity have apostatized completely from the Catholic faith.
    No, it's not ambiguous. And if it's just ambiguous then why can't it be a valid ecuмenical council of the Church? Pseudo pope Benedict XVI said it could be interpreted in the light of Tradition too.


    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #137 on: January 30, 2022, 12:53:47 PM »
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  • No, it's not ambiguous. And if it's just ambiguous then why can't it be a valid ecuмenical council of the Church? Pseudo pope Benedict XVI said it could be interpreted in the light of Tradition too.

    Kindly read Alberigo’s 5 Volume History of Vatican II alongside the entirety of the docuмents of Vatican II and their official Latin Relatio then come back and we can discuss this more fruitfully.

    It’s not a valid ecuмenical council of the Church because it was convoked, ratified, and closed by two heretics, namely John XXIII and Paul VI then interpreted in discontinuity with Church teaching and Tradition by John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis I.

    Benedict XVI’s hermeneutic of continuity is an abstract intellectual exercise removed from the realities of the situation, not due to the docuмents of the council per se, but due to the post-conciliar ecclesiastical situation.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #138 on: January 30, 2022, 01:01:30 PM »
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  • Kindly read Alberigo’s 5 Volume History of Vatican II alongside the entirety of the docuмents of Vatican II and their official Latin Relatio then come back and we can discuss this more fruitfully.

    :laugh2:  In the real world this is called a Jackass Response.  Jupiter: another pseudo-intellectual tool-bag.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #139 on: January 30, 2022, 01:03:01 PM »
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  • Benedict XVI’s hermeneutic of continuity is an abstract intellectual exercise removed from the realities of the situation, not due to the docuмents of the council per se, but due to the post-conciliar ecclesiastical situation.

    This is particularly rich.  Pot, meet kettle. :fryingpan:
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #140 on: January 30, 2022, 01:03:45 PM »
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  • :laugh2:  In the real world this is called a Jackass Response.  Jupiter: another pseudo-intellectual tool-bag.

    This is how I speak in the “real world” as well. I don’t see the problem here aside from my rash assumption that 2Vermont was not well read on the topic she is writing about. Furthermore, I make no pretensions to being an intellectual. Reading books and docuмents does not make one an intellectual.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #141 on: January 30, 2022, 01:09:17 PM »
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  • Jupiter, what sedevacantist group do you align with?  Where do you assist at mass ... not actual location, but group....? Or do you stay home?  Because I have never known a sedevacantist to hold the views you hold regarding Vatican II.

    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #142 on: January 30, 2022, 01:14:44 PM »
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  • Jupiter, what sedevacantist group do you align with?  Where do you assist at mass ... not actual location, but group....? Or do you stay home?  Because I have never known a sedevacantist to hold the views you hold regarding Vatican II.

    I hold to the Cassiciacuм Thesis as the best explanation for the ecclesiastical question. However, due to my views on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Communicatio in Sacris, I am not able to attend Mass at any chapel so I am a “home aloner” as some people would describe it.

    P.S.

    I’ve seen your comments occasionally on NOW (presuming you are the same 2Vermont). Good to meet you, madame and kindly excuse my insensitive response above. I am often brutish and that is most inappropriate in the presence of the fairer side of our species.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #143 on: January 30, 2022, 01:16:27 PM »
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  • I hold to the Cassiciacuм Thesis as the best explanation for the ecclesiastical question. However, due to my views on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Communicatio in Sacris, I am not able to attend Mass at any chapel so I am a “home aloner” as some people would describe it.
    So because of your extreme interpretation and application of the two, you cut yourself off from otherwise valid sacraments? I would say that's imprudent.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #144 on: January 30, 2022, 01:28:05 PM »
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  • So because of your extreme interpretation and application of the two, you cut yourself off from otherwise valid sacraments? I would say that's imprudent.

    Yes. The sacraments are indeed valid, but the Sedevacantist priests dispensing them are heretics for rejecting dogmas, nay even waging war on dogmas, of the Church. Bishop Sanborn’s views on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Natural Family Planning makes his group an impossible choice for me otherwise I am most well disposed to his group’s otherwise phenomenal work. They are especially to be commended on their correct understanding of Communicatio in Sacris and their torch bearing of the late Bishop Guerard des Lauriers’ Cassiciacuм Thesis.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #145 on: January 30, 2022, 01:58:44 PM »
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  • …The longest vacancy of the Holy See has been less than three years, and the episcopate remained one and the same moral body during the interregnum.  And no sane person would claim that the Holy See has been vacant since '89 or '58, nor is that what the insane Sedevacantists are really claiming.  They are claiming that a series of false Pope have been reigning in the Holy See for over 60 years, and that the entire episcopate has recognized them as the legitimate Popes the entire time.  That is a denial of the indefectibility of the Church.…

    "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"

    In the context of Luke 18, it is difficult to appreciate the phrase, but it strikes me that, when Our Lord comes again, that indefectible Church will be almost invisible, in the catacombs.

    I find no promise that the Church will remain large, only that it will remain indefectible.

    Who can make the case that the conciliar sect, all 1 billion of them, is true to the Faith?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #146 on: January 30, 2022, 02:57:06 PM »
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  • Although I believe it can be done, I don't believe we lay people are meant to boil it *all* down to absolute facts.

     It should be enough for us to know that the conciliar religion is not only not Catholic, it is anti-Catholic, this cannot be denied. Knowing this, is knowing that we should avoid everything that has anything to do with it. The reason so many choose to disbelieve that which they cannot deny, is due to their lack of conviction as a result of a lack of faith.

    +ABL was right, the modernists and conciliar church do occupy the True Church, Fr. Wathen puts it like this:

    "...the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who
    maintains membership within it can be saved..."


    What is a "fifth column?"
    Wiki puts it like this:
    "A fifth column is any group of people who undermine a larger group from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine. Forces gathered in secret can mobilize openly to assist an external attack." - describes the situation accurately imo.

    I agree that lay folk cannot boil it all down to absolute facts (the Crisis, that is). But I'm not convinced that Catholic clergy can absolutely boil everything down either. As far as I recall (and I could be wrong), +ABL did not believe that he had all of the answers.

    Perhaps Fr. Wathen believed that he did have all of the answers to the Crisis. For instance, you quoted him as believing that no one who maintains membership in the conciliar church can be saved. I don't recall that +ABL ever said that no one who maintains membership in the conciliar church can be saved. Since he was quite humble and knew his limitations, he did not condemn all who were members in the conciliar church. As he said many times - the Crisis is a mystery. Even though he knew full-well the problems with the conciliar church.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #147 on: January 30, 2022, 03:31:30 PM »
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  • Dogmatic non una cuм is straight from the pit of Hell and is a tool used by Satan to keep traditional Catholics from comingling or from the sacraments altogether.

    I've said this before, but, there is absolutely no historical or Magisterial basis for non una cuм. At all. It is a novelty dreamed up by Bp. Guerard des Lauriers and later catapulted by Fr. Cekada into the only "Catholic" position. Citing an early 19th century English Missal, John Daly noted that the King of England is also prayed una cuм in the Mass following the Pope and the Ordinary; proving that the intention is that the Mass is offered through the office of the one named, not the person. Otherwise, all English Masses would have been mortally sinful to assist at because the Anglican King of England was named una cuм.

    Furthermore, we have the Western Schism to look at as well. Where saints, such as St. Vincent Ferrer, supported the later-declared anti-Pope over the true Pope; therefore, meaning that he offered Masses una cuм an anti-Pope, and, by the logic of this position would have been offending God by committing a grave sin. Yet, as we know, St. Vincent was a great saint who was merely mistaken on the identity of the Pope, and therefore, was not at fault. One could retort that anti-Pope Benedict XIII was "orthodox" therefore nullifying any such comparisons between anti-Pope Francis and Benedict XIII. But this, too, is nonsense, as it either way, by their logic, the Masses said by St. Vincent would still be gravely sinful because a false Pope was named in the Canon.

    Therefore, to dogmatically declare that there is not only sin attached to assisting at a Mass una cuм Francesco, but even a mortal sin, is beyond the authority of those proclaiming it: namely, SGG and MHTS. It is correct to form an opinion on the Pope question, or even act on it individually, but to teach the laity that it would be a sin to attend an SSPX, or even SSPX-Resistance, Mass because they say it una cuм Francesco is divisive, diabolism.

    "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
    [Mark 3:25]

    Your examples are not applicable.  You have a St naming a false pope, but the person he named at least outwardly appeared Catholic. Right now we have an idolater non Catholic running around Rome claiming to be the Vicar of Christ on earth.  With a large group of people saying we don't have to listen to this heretic but we have to name him our leader and name him in our masses?  This doesn't make any sense and is irreconcilable with objective reality.  

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #148 on: January 30, 2022, 03:55:20 PM »
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  • Fr. Wathen puts it like this:

    "...the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who
    maintains membership within it can be saved..."

    So, IF the Conciliar Church is within the Catholic Church...

    ...THEN any and all members of the Conciliar Church are within the Catholic Church. 

    Such a conclusion is absolutely necessary and unavoidable, at least according to Fr. Wathen's "logic" and "ecclesiology."
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #149 on: January 30, 2022, 04:01:36 PM »
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  • Yes. The sacraments are indeed valid, but the Sedevacantist priests dispensing them are heretics for rejecting dogmas, nay even waging war on dogmas, of the Church. Bishop Sanborn’s views on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Natural Family Planning makes his group an impossible choice for me otherwise I am most well disposed to his group’s otherwise phenomenal work. They are especially to be commended on their correct understanding of Communicatio in Sacris and their torch bearing of the late Bishop Guerard des Lauriers’ Cassiciacuм Thesis.
    But you don't belong to the Church of Sanborn, you belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.
    Why reject receiving Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament because of a frail imperfect human albeit a priest?
    I can't seem to get past that with home aloners.  What am I missing?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]