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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42682 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2022, 01:30:01 PM »

The longest vacancy of the Holy See has been less than three years, ...

So then what would be the longest it could be before it would violate the Pius XII principles?  5 years, 10 years, 17 years, 6 months, 14 days, 5 hours, 10 minutes, and 32 seconds?  Either the perpetual visible papacy remains in essence during an interregnum or it doesn't.

As for the "the same moral body" of the episcopate, you've just made up that principle.  Theologians hold that even through an Antipope, through color of title, the bishops of the Church could retain jurisdiction.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2022, 01:32:16 PM »
On Trent, we are agreed.

And if you accept grace, rather than reason, as the starting point to accepting supernatural faith (something your words in the post I initially responded to seemed to reject), then we have no disagreement.

I thought you were suggesting man can reason his way to the Faith, but in light of your subsequent explanations, I see that you were not.

This isn't about grace versus intellect.  Obviously it's grace that moves the intellect.  What's at issue is the activity of the intellect itself, whether it's engaging in natural reasoning (as it does for the motives of credibility) or a supernatural faith.  This movement to accept the Church's authority based on the motives of credibility (natural reasoning) occurs prior to any supernatural acts of faith that follow.

Reasoning, motivated by actual grace, leads up to the very threshold of supernatural faith and disposes the soul to receive supernatural faith (a distinct grace), but actually receiving supernatural faith is a separate grace.  That is why at Baptism, even after a candidate has made the decision that the Catholic Church is the true Church and has all the necessary dispositions, the one about to be baptized is asked what he asks of the Church and responds "faith".  Supernatural faith is then received ex opere operato through the Sacrament of baptism, provide the souls it properly disposed in their natural intellect and will to receive the grace.  It's a mysterious interplay between free will (and intellectual reception) and grace.


Offline Meg

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2022, 01:37:13 PM »
This is not an opinion. It is a matter of fact that heretics reign in the material structures of the Church and where there is heresy there is no holiness, regardless of appearances. The Arians were known for their penances, prayers, zeal, and good works but it availed them for naught since they had no faith on account of their one single heresy.

Also, yes, madame, a Catholic cannot be in communion with a heretic by divine law.

I'm not so sure that the Arians were known for their holiness. They were a violent lot, and often ruled through violence and intimidation. But still it was not ever thought that Rome was not where the True Church was, even though it was for the most part occupied by Arians (except for the Pope).

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2022, 01:42:39 PM »
I'm not so sure that the Arians were known for their holiness. They were a violent lot, and often ruled through violence and intimidation. But still it was not ever thought that Rome was not where the True Church was, even though it was for the most part occupied by Arians (except for the Pope).

Yes, that was mostly after barbarian tribes had become Arian. The original constituents of the movement were known for their “piety.”

As for the latter, the “True Church” is indeed where Peter is, but I do not think Francis I is a successor of Peter.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2022, 02:21:59 PM »
You have absolutely no theologian that supports your case while we have the following:

A. Institutiones Theologiae Fundamentalis [1929], Rev. A. Dorsch
— “The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for many years, from remaining deprived of her head [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet].”

This is why I used the term "essentially" above.  Perfect analogy is with human beings.  Human beings are essentially body and soul.  But when we die, before the final resurrection of the dead, we lack our bodies.  Nevertheless, we remain ESSENTIALLY body and soul despite the lack of a material body.  So too the Church essentially always has a visible head, but the material absence of a head for a time does nothing to undermine this.  To read the teaching of Pius XII in an absolute sense would mean that the Church ceases to exist during every interregnum.