Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI (Read 42650 times)

Meg · « **Reply #110 on:** January 29, 2022, 01:13:58 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on January 29, 2022, 12:37:45 PM

There are certainly those within the Conciliar Church who still formally possess the faith but are materially separated. During the Great Western Schism we had (canonized) saints on all sides who were nevertheless formally united. But this does not mean that the institution of the Conciliar Church itself is materially and objectively the Catholic Church ... any more than it meant that all the popes who had Catholic followers during the Great Western Schism were legitimate.

It's a mystery that we cannot really boil down to absolute facts. The conciliar church isn't exactly the True Church, but it's not completely separate either.

As +ABL said, the modernists and conciliar church occupy the True Church. No one is required to believe this here, but some of us do. In this situation, we have to assume that the True Church is still in Rome, but currently occupied. But what does occupation mean?

For example: my late mother-in-law was Dutch, and as young woman lived in Holland during WWll. Holland was occupied by the Germans, and it was not ruled by the Dutch at all except in a subservient capacity to the Germans, but it was still Holland, if that makes sense. If the occupation of Holland has lasted much longer, it may have been perceived to be a different country eventually, but probably not. The Dutch of old loved their culture, and it was unique, as were all counties in Europe. You may have a story from your own family background, regarding occupation. It happened often in Europe and eastern Europe in the last century, and before that as well.

Jupiter · « **Reply #111 on:** January 29, 2022, 01:23:49 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 29, 2022, 01:05:00 PM

Grace is most assuredly the primary vehicle and the starting point: Without it, man cannot assent to the supernatural truths of revelation.

The fact that Protestants can be deluded is as irrelevant to that article of faith, as that men can refuse it.

It is the starting point, but not the vehicle.

The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. vi, and can. xii) decrees that not the fiduciary faith, but a real mental act of faith, consisting of a firm belief in all revealed truths makes up the faith of justification and the "beginning, foundation, and source" (loc. cit., cap. viii) of justification.

“The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God…Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised…”

The fact that people can be deluded in matters of faith or outright reject Grace is known to man by faith which is possible only by his mind and ability to reason which is the most relevant part of this discussion.

Quo vadis Domine · « **Reply #112 on:** January 29, 2022, 01:25:18 PM »

Quote from: RomanTheo on January 29, 2022, 01:06:21 PM

The longest vacancy of the Holy See has been less than three years, and the episcopate remained one and the same moral body during the interregnum. And no sane person would claim that the Holy See has been vacant since '89 or '58, nor is that what the insane Sedevacantists are really claiming. They are claiming that a series of false Pope have been reigning in the Holy See for over 60 years, and that the entire episcopate has recognized them as the legitimate Popes the entire time. That is a denial of the indefectibility of the Church.

You have absolutely no theologian that supports your case while we have the following:

A. Institutiones Theologiae Fundamentalis [1929], Rev. A. Dorsch
— “The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for many years, from remaining deprived of her head [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet].”

B. The Relations of the Church to Society [1882], Fr. Edward J. O’Reilly, S.J.
— “In the first place, there was all throughout from the death of Gregory XI in 1378, a Pope—with the exception, of course, of the intervals between deaths and elections to fill up the vacancies thereby created. There was, I say, at every given time a Pope, really invested with the dignity of Vicar of Christ and Head of the Church, whatever opinions might exist among many as to his genuineness; not that an interregnum covering the whole period would have been impossible or inconsistent with the promises of Christ, for this is by no means manifest, but that, as a matter of fact, there was not such an interregnum.”

“The great schism of the West suggests to me a reflection which I take the liberty of expressing here. If this schism had not occurred, the hypothesis of such a thing happening would appear to many chimerical. They would say it could not be; God would not permit the Church to come into so unhappy a situation. Heresies might spring up and spread and last painfully long, through the fault and to the perdition of their authors and abettors, to the great distress too of the faithful, increased by actual persecution in many places where the heretics were dominant. But that the true Church should remain between thirty and forty years without a thoroughly ascertained Head, and representative of Christ on earth, this would not be. Yet it has been; and we have no guarantee that it will not be again, though we may fervently hope otherwise. What I would infer is, that we must not be too ready to pronounce on what God may permit.”

C. The Catholic’s Ready Answer [1915], Rev. M. P. Hill, S.J.
— “If during the entire schism (nearly 40 years) there had been no Pope at all—that would not prove that the office and authority of Peter was not transmitted to the next Pope duly elected.”

D. The Defense of the Catholic Church [1927] Fr. Francis X. Doyle, S.J.
— “The Church is a visible society with a visible Ruler. If there can be any doubt about who that visible Ruler is, he is not visible, and hence, where there is any doubt about whether a person has been legitimately elected Pope, that doubt must be removed before he can become the visible head of Christ’s Church. Blessed Bellarmine, S.J., says: 'A doubtful Pope must be considered as not Pope’; and Suarez, S.J., says: 'At the time of the Council of Constance there were three men claiming to be Pope.... Hence, it could have been that not one of them was the true Pope, and in that case, there was no Pope at all....’”

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #113 on:** January 29, 2022, 01:27:17 PM »

Quote from: Jupiter on January 29, 2022, 01:23:49 PM

It is the starting point, but not the vehicle.

The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. vi, and can. xii) decrees that not the fiduciary faith, but a real mental act of faith, consisting of a firm belief in all revealed truths makes up the faith of justification and the "beginning, foundation, and source" (loc. cit., cap. viii) of justification.

“The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.”

The fact that people can be deluded in matters of faith or outright reject Grace is known to man by faith which is known by his mind and ability to reason which is the most relevant part of this discussion.

On Trent, we are agreed.

And if you accept grace, rather than reason, as the starting point to accepting supernatural faith (something your words in the post I initially responded to seemed to reject), then we have no disagreement.

I thought you were suggesting man can reason his way to the Faith, but in light of your subsequent explanations, I see that you were not.

Jupiter · « **Reply #114 on:** January 29, 2022, 01:29:57 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 29, 2022, 01:27:17 PM

On Trent, we are agreed.

And if you accept grace, rather than reason, as the starting point to accepting supernatural faith (something your words in the post I initially responded to seemed to reject), then we have no disagreement.

Yes, I think we are in agreement here.

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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI (Read 42650 times)

Meg

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI

Jupiter

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Quo vadis Domine

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SeanJohnson

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Jupiter

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI