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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 24249 times)

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Offline Jupiter

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2022, 12:54:36 PM »
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  • So, in your opinion, it does not really matter if any holiness still exists in the conciliar church, since heretics reign there, and we can't be in communion with heretics? I'm just trying to clarify your position.

    This is not an opinion. It is a matter of fact that heretics reign in the material structures of the Church and where there is heresy there is no holiness, regardless of appearances. The Arians were known for their penances, prayers, zeal, and good works but it availed them for naught since they had no faith on account of their one single heresy.

    Also, yes, madame, a Catholic cannot be in communion with a heretic by divine law.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #106 on: January 29, 2022, 12:57:53 PM »
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  •  The universality of the teaching alone does not suffice for it to be infallibly proposed; it must also be proposed definitively as revealed, for it to be infallible by the force of the ordinary and universal magisterium.

    Very interesting.  

    I always understood universality to comprise two criteria:

    1) Geographical (ie., moral unanimity of the bishops throughout the world at a given time on a given subject);

    2) Temporal (ie., traditionally taught throughout time).

    My understanding was that this was basically the Rule of St. Vincent Lerrins:

    1) Always

    2) Everywhere

    If I understand your argument, this Rule would not actually suffice to determine what is binding and of faith, or of Tradition, because St. Vincent’s Rule only considered universality (in the two aspects described).

    Or, maybe I have misunderstood, and St. Vincent is talking about one thing, and you about something else?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #107 on: January 29, 2022, 01:01:01 PM »
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  • "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #108 on: January 29, 2022, 01:05:00 PM »
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  • Grace is a part of it, but not the primary vehicle. The mind must consent to the Grace that is given or Grace is useless.

    The Protestant believes himself to have “Grace” as the Catholic does. Who actually has Grace?

    The intellect must determine. Not “feelings” or “sentimentalisms.”

    Grace is most assuredly the primary vehicle and the starting point: Without it, man cannot assent to the supernatural truths of revelation.

    The fact that Protestants can be deluded is as irrelevant to that article of faith, as that men can refuse it.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #109 on: January 29, 2022, 01:06:21 PM »
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  • See, it's OK for YOU to "interpret" papal teaching and then declare your conclusions dogmatic, but not for the sedevacantists, eh?  This is talking about the ESSENTIAL perpetuity and visibility of the Holy See. 

    I didn't provide an interpretation, nor did I declare that the interpretation I didn't provide was dogmatic.  It was you who provided an interpretation.  Let's see how you did. 

    You interpret Pius XII as teaching that the Holy See is what remains essentially visible, whereas what Pius XII actually said is that "it is absolutely necessary that the Supreme Head, that is, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, be visible to the eyes of all."  

    The Holy See is the Apostolic see of Rome (the diocese of Rome). 

    "The Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth" is the actual reigning Pope, not the diocese of Rome.


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    We know that a prolonged vacancy of the Holy See is possible, and that too contradicts your interpretation of this teaching.

    The longest vacancy of the Holy See has been less than three years, and the episcopate remained one and the same moral body during the interregnum.  And no sane person would claim that the Holy See has been vacant since '89 or '58, nor is that what the insane Sedevacantists are really claiming.  They are claiming that a series of false Pope have been reigning in the Holy See for over 60 years, and that the entire episcopate has recognized them as the legitimate Popes the entire time.  That is a denial of the indefectibility of the Church.


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    As for your second issue, I've repeatedly argued that there can be and are people who are formally Catholic who are nevertheless materially divided due to the Crisis.  This is the second time now that you've straw-manned me with the arguments of the dogmatic sedevacantists, which I have consistently opposed.  In fact, I argue that there are some bishops in the Church who continue to exercise ordinary jurisdiction.

    You are missing the point Ladislaus.  You maintain that the universal Church based on Rome lacks the four marks.  If that is the case, the universal Church based in Rome is a false Church, and anyone who belongs to that Church, de facto, belongs to a false Church. How could Siri be an active member of the governing body of this false Church while at the same time being the Pope of the true Church?  What kind of warped ecclesiology is that?

    Lastly, you said "some bishops of the Church" continue to exercise jurisdiction.  What Church are you referring to?  The Church is a visible, hierarchical society with four marks.  Since you believe the visible, hierarchical society based on Rome lacks the four marks, what Church do these bishops with ordinary jurisdiction belong to?

    It is one thing to say that members of a false Church can be united to the soul of the true Church, but it is impossible to maintain that members of a false Church can simultaneously be united to the body - much less the governing body - of the true Church, which is precisely what you are claiming. 

    This warped and heretical ecclesiology is a direct result of the Sedevacantist errors and heresies that you have embraced.




    Offline Meg

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #110 on: January 29, 2022, 01:13:58 PM »
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  • There are certainly those within the Conciliar Church who still formally possess the faith but are materially separated.  During the Great Western Schism we had (canonized) saints on all sides who were nevertheless formally united.  But this does not mean that the institution of the Conciliar Church itself is materially and objectively the Catholic Church ... any more than it meant that all the popes who had Catholic followers during the Great Western Schism were legitimate.

    It's a mystery that we cannot really boil down to absolute facts. The conciliar church isn't exactly the True Church, but it's not completely separate either.

    As +ABL said, the modernists and conciliar church occupy the True Church. No one is required to believe this here, but some of us do. In this situation, we have to assume that the True Church is still in Rome, but currently occupied. But what does occupation mean?

    For example: my late mother-in-law was Dutch, and as young woman lived in Holland during WWll. Holland was occupied by the Germans, and it was not ruled by the Dutch at all except in a subservient capacity to the Germans, but it was still Holland, if that makes sense. If the occupation of Holland has lasted much longer, it may have been perceived to be a different country eventually, but probably not. The Dutch of old loved their culture, and it was unique, as were all counties in Europe. You may have a story from your own family background, regarding occupation. It happened often in Europe and eastern Europe in the last century, and before that as well.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #111 on: January 29, 2022, 01:23:49 PM »
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  • Grace is most assuredly the primary vehicle and the starting point: Without it, man cannot assent to the supernatural truths of revelation.

    The fact that Protestants can be deluded is as irrelevant to that article of faith, as that men can refuse it.

    It is the starting point, but not the vehicle.

    The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. vi, and can. xii) decrees that not the fiduciary faith, but a real mental act of faith, consisting of a firm belief in all revealed truths makes up the faith of justification and the "beginning, foundation, and source" (loc. cit., cap. viii) of justification.

    “The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God…Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised…”

    The fact that people can be deluded in matters of faith or outright reject Grace is known to man by faith which is possible only by his mind and ability to reason which is the most relevant part of this discussion.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #112 on: January 29, 2022, 01:25:18 PM »
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  • The longest vacancy of the Holy See has been less than three years, and the episcopate remained one and the same moral body during the interregnum.  And no sane person would claim that the Holy See has been vacant since '89 or '58, nor is that what the insane Sedevacantists are really claiming.  They are claiming that a series of false Pope have been reigning in the Holy See for over 60 years, and that the entire episcopate has recognized them as the legitimate Popes the entire time.  That is a denial of the indefectibility of the Church.


    You have absolutely no theologian that supports your case while we have the following:

    A. Institutiones Theologiae Fundamentalis [1929], Rev. A. Dorsch
    — “The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for many years, from remaining deprived of her head [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet].”

    B. The Relations of the Church to Society [1882], Fr. Edward J. O’Reilly, S.J.
    — “In the first place, there was all throughout from the death of Gregory XI in 1378, a Pope—with the exception, of course, of the intervals between deaths and elections to fill up the vacancies thereby created. There was, I say, at every given time a Pope, really invested with the dignity of Vicar of Christ and Head of the Church, whatever opinions might exist among many as to his genuineness; not that an interregnum covering the whole period would have been impossible or inconsistent with the promises of Christ, for this is by no means manifest, but that, as a matter of fact, there was not such an interregnum.”

    “The great schism of the West suggests to me a reflection which I take the liberty of expressing here. If this schism had not occurred, the hypothesis of such a thing happening would appear to many chimerical. They would say it could not be; God would not permit the Church to come into so unhappy a situation. Heresies might spring up and spread and last painfully long, through the fault and to the perdition of their authors and abettors, to the great distress too of the faithful, increased by actual persecution in many places where the heretics were dominant. But that the true Church should remain between thirty and forty years without a thoroughly ascertained Head, and representative of Christ on earth, this would not be. Yet it has been; and we have no guarantee that it will not be again, though we may fervently hope otherwise. What I would infer is, that we must not be too ready to pronounce on what God may permit.”

    C.  The Catholic’s Ready Answer [1915], Rev. M. P. Hill, S.J.
    — “If during the entire schism (nearly 40 years) there had been no Pope at all—that would not prove that the office and authority of Peter was not transmitted to the next Pope duly elected.”

    D. The Defense of the Catholic Church [1927] Fr. Francis X. Doyle, S.J.
    — “The Church is a visible society with a visible Ruler. If there can be any doubt about who that visible Ruler is, he is not visible, and hence, where there is any doubt about whether a person has been legitimately elected Pope, that doubt must be removed before he can become the visible head of Christ’s Church. Blessed Bellarmine, S.J., says: 'A doubtful Pope must be considered as not Pope’; and Suarez, S.J., says: 'At the time of the Council of Constance there were three men claiming to be Pope.... Hence, it could have been that not one of them was the true Pope, and in that case, there was no Pope at all....’”



    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #113 on: January 29, 2022, 01:27:17 PM »
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  • It is the starting point, but not the vehicle.

    The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. vi, and can. xii) decrees that not the fiduciary faith, but a real mental act of faith, consisting of a firm belief in all revealed truths makes up the faith of justification and the "beginning, foundation, and source" (loc. cit., cap. viii) of justification.

    “The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.”

    The fact that people can be deluded in matters of faith or outright reject Grace is known to man by faith which is known by his mind and ability to reason which is the most relevant part of this discussion.

    On Trent, we are agreed.

    And if you accept grace, rather than reason, as the starting point to accepting supernatural faith (something your words in the post I initially responded to seemed to reject), then we have no disagreement.

    I thought you were suggesting man can reason his way to the Faith, but in light of your subsequent explanations, I see that you were not.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #114 on: January 29, 2022, 01:29:57 PM »
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  • On Trent, we are agreed.

    And if you accept grace, rather than reason, as the starting point to accepting supernatural faith (something your words in the post I initially responded to seemed to reject), then we have no disagreement.

    Yes, I think we are in agreement here.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #115 on: January 29, 2022, 01:30:01 PM »
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  • The longest vacancy of the Holy See has been less than three years, ...

    So then what would be the longest it could be before it would violate the Pius XII principles?  5 years, 10 years, 17 years, 6 months, 14 days, 5 hours, 10 minutes, and 32 seconds?  Either the perpetual visible papacy remains in essence during an interregnum or it doesn't.

    As for the "the same moral body" of the episcopate, you've just made up that principle.  Theologians hold that even through an Antipope, through color of title, the bishops of the Church could retain jurisdiction.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #116 on: January 29, 2022, 01:32:16 PM »
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  • On Trent, we are agreed.

    And if you accept grace, rather than reason, as the starting point to accepting supernatural faith (something your words in the post I initially responded to seemed to reject), then we have no disagreement.

    I thought you were suggesting man can reason his way to the Faith, but in light of your subsequent explanations, I see that you were not.

    This isn't about grace versus intellect.  Obviously it's grace that moves the intellect.  What's at issue is the activity of the intellect itself, whether it's engaging in natural reasoning (as it does for the motives of credibility) or a supernatural faith.  This movement to accept the Church's authority based on the motives of credibility (natural reasoning) occurs prior to any supernatural acts of faith that follow.

    Reasoning, motivated by actual grace, leads up to the very threshold of supernatural faith and disposes the soul to receive supernatural faith (a distinct grace), but actually receiving supernatural faith is a separate grace.  That is why at Baptism, even after a candidate has made the decision that the Catholic Church is the true Church and has all the necessary dispositions, the one about to be baptized is asked what he asks of the Church and responds "faith".  Supernatural faith is then received ex opere operato through the Sacrament of baptism, provide the souls it properly disposed in their natural intellect and will to receive the grace.  It's a mysterious interplay between free will (and intellectual reception) and grace.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #117 on: January 29, 2022, 01:37:13 PM »
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  • This is not an opinion. It is a matter of fact that heretics reign in the material structures of the Church and where there is heresy there is no holiness, regardless of appearances. The Arians were known for their penances, prayers, zeal, and good works but it availed them for naught since they had no faith on account of their one single heresy.

    Also, yes, madame, a Catholic cannot be in communion with a heretic by divine law.

    I'm not so sure that the Arians were known for their holiness. They were a violent lot, and often ruled through violence and intimidation. But still it was not ever thought that Rome was not where the True Church was, even though it was for the most part occupied by Arians (except for the Pope).
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #118 on: January 29, 2022, 01:42:39 PM »
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  • I'm not so sure that the Arians were known for their holiness. They were a violent lot, and often ruled through violence and intimidation. But still it was not ever thought that Rome was not where the True Church was, even though it was for the most part occupied by Arians (except for the Pope).

    Yes, that was mostly after barbarian tribes had become Arian. The original constituents of the movement were known for their “piety.”

    As for the latter, the “True Church” is indeed where Peter is, but I do not think Francis I is a successor of Peter.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #119 on: January 29, 2022, 02:21:59 PM »
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  • You have absolutely no theologian that supports your case while we have the following:

    A. Institutiones Theologiae Fundamentalis [1929], Rev. A. Dorsch
    — “The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for many years, from remaining deprived of her head [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet].”

    This is why I used the term "essentially" above.  Perfect analogy is with human beings.  Human beings are essentially body and soul.  But when we die, before the final resurrection of the dead, we lack our bodies.  Nevertheless, we remain ESSENTIALLY body and soul despite the lack of a material body.  So too the Church essentially always has a visible head, but the material absence of a head for a time does nothing to undermine this.  To read the teaching of Pius XII in an absolute sense would mean that the Church ceases to exist during every interregnum.