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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 24234 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2022, 12:08:54 PM »
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  • Mystici Corporis Christi: "69. Now since its Founder willed this social body of Christ to be visible, the cooperation of all its members must also be externally manifest through their profession of the same faith and their sharing the same sacred rites, through participation in the same Sacrifice, and the practical observance of the same laws. Above all, it is absolutely necessary that the Supreme Head, that is, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, be visible to the eyes of all, since it is He who gives effective direction to the work which all do in common in a mutually helpful way towards the attainment of the proposed end."

    So much for the Siri Theory.  Moreover, how could Siri have been  the Pope when he remained a member of the "Vatican II sect" that you claim lacks the four marks?  How can the member of a false Church be the Pope of the true Church? 


    See, it's OK for YOU to "interpret" papal teaching and then declare your conclusions dogmatic, but not for the sedevacantists, eh?  This is talking about the ESSENTIAL perpetuity and visibility of the Holy See.  We already have the precedent of the Great Western schism which overturns your particular interpretation of this teaching.  We know that a prolonged vacancy of the Holy See is possible, and that too contradicts your interpretation of this teaching.

    As for your second issue, I've repeatedly argued that there can be and are people who are formally Catholic who are nevertheless materially divided due to the Crisis.  This is the second time now that you've straw-manned me with the arguments of the dogmatic sedevacantists, which I have consistently opposed.  In fact, I argue that there are some bishops in the Church who continue to exercise ordinary jurisdiction.

    You regularly lump all sedevacantists into the "dogmatic" sedevacantist camp, and this simply not the case.

    Offline OneShotPaddy

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #91 on: January 29, 2022, 12:13:07 PM »
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  • Mystici Corporis Christi: "69. Now since its Founder willed this social body of Christ to be visible, the cooperation of all its members must also be externally manifest through their profession of the same faith and their sharing the same sacred rites, through participation in the same Sacrifice, and the practical observance of the same laws. Above all, it is absolutely necessary that the Supreme Head, that is, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, be visible to the eyes of all, since it is He who gives effective direction to the work which all do in common in a mutually helpful way towards the attainment of the proposed end."

    So much for the Siri Theory.  Moreover, how could Siri have been  the Pope when he remained a member of the "Vatican II sect" that you claim lacks the four marks?  How can the member of a false Church be the Pope of the true Church? 


    Can you explain how the Roman Pontiff was visible to the eyes of all during the Great Western Schism? How did the American Indians see the Pope with their eyes before Columbus sailed westward? Is Francis visible to the North Sentinelese? Perhaps he means visible to all of the Elect (and what does that mean for those who are saved by pseudo-Pelagian implicit desire)?  So many questions.

    Clearly, "visible to all" must be interpreted differently than to how you have done so.
    "All Christendom know your quarrel is good – to fight for your native birth-right and for the religion which your forefathers professed and maintained since Christianity came first to this land... Your word is Sancta Maria; and so in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, advance, and give not fire till you are within pike-length."

    - Eoghan Ruadh Ó Néill


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #92 on: January 29, 2022, 12:16:22 PM »
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  • Can you explain how the Roman Pontiff was visible to the eyes of all during the Great Western Schism? How did the American Indians see the Pope with their eyes before Columbus sailed westward? Is Francis visible to the North Sentinelese? Perhaps he means visible to all of the Elect (and what does that mean for those who are saved by pseudo-Pelagian implicit desire)?  So many questions.

    Clearly, "visible to all" must be interpreted differently than to how you have done so.

    THIS^^^ ... exactly as I also responded.  RomanTheo has no problem asserting his own interpretation of papal teaching as dogma (and labelling those who deny it as heretics) while attacking the sedevacantists for doing the same thing.  There's a word for it that beings with an h.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #93 on: January 29, 2022, 12:24:42 PM »
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  •   We do not apply our "reason" to judge individual teachings of that authority.

    St. Paul told us to hold all teachings up against the Gospel, the teachings that have been communicated from Our Lord in Scripture and in traditions sacrosanct and handed down. Doesn't matter who they are from, they are to be judged by this standard:

    Quote
    Galatians 1:7-8


    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
    Sed licet nos aut angelus de caelo evangelizet vobis praeterquam quod evangelizavimus vobis, anathema sit.

    [9]
     As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

    Sicut praediximus, et nunc iterum dico : si quis vobis evangelizaverit praeter id quod accepistis, anathema sit.

    Impossible to do that without "reason." 

    reasoning process is what tells one the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #94 on: January 29, 2022, 12:25:59 PM »
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  • I agree with RomanTheo. There is visibility today in the material structures of the Church. But what is it that is visible? Nothing but heresy, blasphemy, impiety, sacrilege, destruction, sin, and scandal.

    This is the visibility of iniquity; not holiness.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #95 on: January 29, 2022, 12:31:51 PM »
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  • I agree with RomanTheo. There is visibility today in the material structures of the Church. But what is it that is visible? Nothing but heresy, blasphemy, impiety, sacrilege, destruction, sin, and scandal.

    This is the visibility of iniquity; not holiness.

    The man, and his church, of lawlessness, appearing in the temple of God. 2 Thessalonians 2. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #96 on: January 29, 2022, 12:33:45 PM »
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  • I agree with RomanTheo. There is visibility today in the material structures of the Church. But what is it that is visible? Nothing but heresy, blasphemy, impiety, sacrilege, destruction, sin, and scandal.

    This is the visibility of iniquity; not holiness.

    How do you know that there's no holiness at all in the visible and material structure of the church? The negative elements that you describe above do exist, but can you be quite sure that nothing of the Catholic Faith remains? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #97 on: January 29, 2022, 12:36:37 PM »
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  • I agree with RomanTheo. There is visibility today in the material structures of the Church. But what is it that is visible? Nothing but heresy, blasphemy, impiety, sacrilege, destruction, sin, and scandal.

    This is the visibility of iniquity; not holiness.

    Yes. It serves its purpose in that. That is the sign of the approaching return of Our Lord, forecast in the Scriptures. When you see the "abomination of desolation" . . . flee and get ready.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #98 on: January 29, 2022, 12:37:45 PM »
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  • How do you know that there's no holiness at all in the visible and material structure of the church? The negative elements that you describe above do exist, but can you be quite sure that nothing of the Catholic Faith remains?

    There are certainly those within the Conciliar Church who still formally possess the faith but are materially separated.  During the Great Western Schism we had (canonized) saints on all sides who were nevertheless formally united.  But this does not mean that the institution of the Conciliar Church itself is materially and objectively the Catholic Church ... any more than it meant that all the popes who had Catholic followers during the Great Western Schism were legitimate.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #99 on: January 29, 2022, 12:38:49 PM »
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  • Interesting.

    So how does a non-Catholic come to the belief that there is an infallible teacher that has infallibly taught a doctrine that was revealed by God?

    Subjective personal taste? Coercion? “Feelings” of the Holy Spirit communicating?

    Grace.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #100 on: January 29, 2022, 12:39:04 PM »
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  • How do you know that there's no holiness at all in the visible and material structure of the church? The negative elements that you describe above do exist, but can you be quite sure that nothing of the Catholic Faith remains?

    Communicatio in Sacris/Divinis with heretics and/or schismatics is heresy. Those in the material structures of the Church are heretics for either a) being heretics themselves or b) for being in Communion with heretics.

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#9): “No one who merely disbelieves in all can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single heresy he is not a Catholic.”

    III Council of Constantinople, 680-681: “If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into…the meetinghouses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from communion.”


    Offline Jupiter

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #101 on: January 29, 2022, 12:40:00 PM »
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  • Grace.

    Grace is a part of it, but not the primary vehicle. The mind must consent to the Grace that is given or Grace is useless.

    The Protestant believes himself to have “Grace” as the Catholic does. Who actually has Grace?

    The intellect must determine. Not “feelings” or “sentimentalisms.”

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #102 on: January 29, 2022, 12:43:45 PM »
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  • Communicatio in Sacris/Divinis with heretics and/or schismatics is heresy. Those in the material structures of the Church are heretics for either a) being heretics themselves or b) for being in Communion with heretics.

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#9): “No one who merely disbelieves in all can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single heresy he is not a Catholic.”

    III Council of Constantinople, 680-681: “If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into…the meetinghouses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from communion.”

    It's foundational, part of the Gospel referenced by St. Paul in Galatians: 

    Quote
    2 John

    [9] Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.

    Omnis qui recedit, et non permanet in doctrina Christi, Deum non habet : qui permanet in doctrina, hic et Patrem et Filium habet.


    [10] If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.
    Si quis venit ad vos, et hanc doctrinam non affert, nolite recipere eum in domum, nec Ave ei dixeritis.

    [11]
     For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works.

    Qui enim dicit illi Ave, communicat operibus ejus malignis.


    [9] Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.

    Omnis qui recedit, et non permanet in doctrina Christi, Deum non habet : qui permanet in doctrina, hic et Patrem et Filium habet.


    [10] If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.
    Si quis venit ad vos, et hanc doctrinam non affert, nolite recipere eum in domum, nec Ave ei dixeritis.

    [11]
     For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works.

    Qui enim dicit illi Ave, communicat operibus ejus malignis.

    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/70001.htm

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #103 on: January 29, 2022, 12:50:02 PM »
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  • Communicatio in Sacris/Divinis with heretics and/or schismatics is heresy. Those in the material structures of the Church are heretics for either a) being heretics themselves or b) for being in Communion with heretics.

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#9): “No one who merely disbelieves in all can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single heresy he is not a Catholic.”

    III Council of Constantinople, 680-681: “If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into…the meetinghouses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from communion.”

    So, in your opinion, it does not really matter if any holiness still exists in the conciliar church, since heretics reign there, and we can't be in communion with heretics? I'm just trying to clarify your position.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #104 on: January 29, 2022, 12:53:26 PM »
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  • Agreed. Honestly, it goes to show the absolute importance of having an orthodox (or valid, depending on your position) Pope.
    Never fear.  Jupiter is here.