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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42676 times)

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2022, 11:01:52 AM »
This is Protestantism, pure and simple. The certainty of faith is not based on conclusions that fallible humans reach through the use of their mind. 

The way we know with infallibly certainty that a doctrine has been revealed by God, is because an infallible teacher has infallibly taught that the doctrine has been revealed by God.

Interesting.

So how does a non-Catholic come to the belief that there is an infallible teacher that has infallibly taught a doctrine that was revealed by God?

Subjective personal taste? Coercion? “Feelings” of the Holy Spirit communicating?

Your post demonstrates the dangers of the approach taken by Ladislaus and yourself.

By minimizing the role of the mind in the process of coming to faith, you ultimately destroy the possibility of faith in the first place. Without the mind, you can never have certainty of faith. This certainty will always depend on the mind’s ability to grasp truth without which faith is impossible.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2022, 11:02:31 AM »
The way we know with infallibly certainty that a doctrine has been revealed by God, is because an infallible teacher has infallibly taught that the doctrine has been revealed by God.
...
Everyone who attends mass at a Sedevacantist sect is, by definition, manifest heretic and notorious heretic.

You start on the right foot but then twist it.  Just because the position has not been taught by an infallble teacher doesn't make it wrong.  It simply changes the theological note of the argument.

In a way, you've done PRECISELY what you condemn as Protestantism.  Based on your judgment, you declare SVs manifest heretics.  Oh the hypocrisy.

And if you were to assert that SVism is condemned by the Church (I've actually seen no explicit condemnation), you're begging the question that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church.

You've basically ended up hypocritically doing the same thing you condemn as Protestant heresy.


Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2022, 11:12:27 AM »

MAJOR:  The Church cannot teach heresy in her official capacity and magisterium to the universal faithful.  (agreed, de fide)
MINOR:  The Conciliar Church has taught heresy in an official capacity and in its magisterium.
CONCLUSION:  Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.

This is a perfect example the ignorance of Sedevacantists, and the false conclusions they reach by the use of their private judgement. 

Mr. Ladislaus, what is de fide (Dei Filius, Vatican I) is that a doctrine is infallibly propose by the ordinary and universal magisterium when 1) all the bishops of the world agree that 2) the doctrine in question is a revealed truth that must be assented to with divine and Catholic faith.  The universality of the teaching alone does not suffice for it to be infallibly proposed; it must also be proposed definitively as revealed, for it to be infallible by the force of the ordinary and universal magisterium. 

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2022, 11:19:12 AM »
This is a perfect example the ignorance of Sedevacantists, and the false conclusions they reach by the use of their private judgement.

Mr. Ladislaus, what is de fide (Dei Filius, Vatican I) is that a doctrine is infallibly propose by the ordinary and universal magisterium when 1) all the bishops of the world agree that 2) the doctrine in question is a revealed truth that must be assented to with divine and Catholic faith.  The universality of the teaching alone does not suffice for it to be infallibly proposed; it must also be proposed definitively as revealed, for it to be infallible by the force of the ordinary and universal magisterium.


The indefectibility of the Church is related to the de fide credenda dogma of the perpetuity of Papal succession defined in the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church “Pastor aeternus.” The dogma of the indefectibility of the Church is moreover closely related to the doctrine of the permanence of the Church, and although it has not been proclaimed in an independent extraordinary decree of its own, it is considered a secondary object of the infallibility of this teaching, and as such, is a tenenda infallible teaching in its own right. The indefectibility of the Church is listed by Dr. Ludwig Ott as a sententia theologice certa (“theologically certain teaching” or Sent. certa.) dogma, meaning that it is a teaching that the Magisterium has definitively proposed. The dogma of the indefectibility of the Church has been summarized as follows: “The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world” (XIV).

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2022, 11:26:40 AM »
Interesting.

So how does a non-Catholic come to the belief that there is an infallible teacher that has infallibly taught a doctrine that was revealed by God?

Two steps:

First, by examining the motives of credibility and arriving at the conclusion that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ.  This can be achieved by the use of reason, and quite easily with the help of actual grace. 

Second. By accepting that what the true Church teaches is true.  Since the Church teaches that the magisterium is an infallible teacher, it follows that if the Church infallibly proposes a doctrine as having been revealed by God, the person will believe that the doctrine in question is revealed - and they will believe it, not based on their private judgment, but on the infallible authority of the infallible Church teaching.

That is how a non-Catholic comes to believe that there is an infallible teacher that has infallibly taught a doctrine that was revealed by God.