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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42716 times)

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2022, 09:53:00 AM »
The certainty of faith is epistemologically certain because God revealed it (articles of faith). How do we know God revealed something?

The certainty of faith is only possible by reaching conclusions through the use of the mind. Therefore if the conclusions of the mind are said to be uncertain outside the realm of faith then there can be no certainty of faith since faith is dependent on cognitive faculties. The certainty of faith can only be as certain as that on which it was reached!

Therefore the very distinguishing of certainty of faith vs certainty of knowledge is a false and contradictory epistemological dichotomy.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2022, 10:43:12 AM »
The matter is very simple.

The Church cannot teach heresy in her official capacity and magisterium to the universal faithful.

This response proves my point.  You've compressed the entire syllogism into a single proposition.  But you're really only speaking of the MAJOR in the SV proposition (with which I wholeheartedly agree, BTW).  I agree this this statement above is de fide.  But then where is the rest of the argument?

MAJOR:  The Church cannot teach heresy in her official capacity and magisterium to the universal faithful.  (agreed, de fide)
MINOR:  The Conciliar Church has taught heresy in an official capacity and in its magisterium.
CONCLUSION:  Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.

I actually agree with this conclusion and have argued this myself.  But here's the problem.

Look at the MINOR (which you've lost sight of due to your compression of the entire argument into it being a restatement of the Major alone).  When did the Church teach this?  Never, since the Church has been in eclipse since this whole thing started.  We have arrived at this conclusion based on our private judgment.

Because the MINOR only has fallible private judgment behind it, the conclusion also depends on fallible and non-authoritative private judgment.

Ah, but the SV would respond:  Vatican II was condemned by past Magisterium.  No it wasn't, not explicitly.  It is your contention and argument that the propositions in Vatican II contradict previous Magisterium, but the Church has not officially ruled on whether that was in fact the case.  I've seen decent and plausible attempts to argue that the teachings of V2 can be interpreted in a way that's consistent with the previous Magisterium.  I do not agree with that, but this is MY OPINION.  I cannot bind consciences.  I have no authority.  Neither do you.

So you call this simple because you OVER-simplify it, compressing the entire argument into the Major alone.  And then because the Major is in fact de fide, you falsely believe that the conclusion is also.

THIS here is the chief error of dogmatic SVism.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2022, 10:46:39 AM »
This is false.

Wrong.  See my previous response.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2022, 10:57:02 AM »
The certainty of faith is epistemologically certain because God revealed it (articles of faith). How do we know God revealed something?

The certainty of faith is only possible by reaching conclusions through the use of the mind.

This is Protestantism, pure and simple. The certainty of faith is not based on conclusions that fallible humans reach through the use of their mind. 

The way we know with infallibly certainty that a doctrine has been revealed by God, is because an infallible teacher has infallibly taught that the doctrine has been revealed by God.

The Protestantism of Sedevacantism becomes more evident with each passing day. How many individual Sedevacantist sects do we have today, due to each person relying on his private judgment? 

One of the marks of the true Church is unity of government, both diachronic and synchronic.  There is no more unity of government in Sedevacantism than there is in Protestantism.

Everyone who attends mass at a Sedevacantist sect is, by definition, manifest heretic and notorious heretic.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2022, 10:57:44 AM »
This response proves my point.  You've compressed the entire syllogism into a single proposition.  But you're really only speaking of the MAJOR in the SV proposition (with which I wholeheartedly agree, BTW).  I agree this this statement above is de fide.  But then where is the rest of the argument?

MAJOR:  The Church cannot teach heresy in her official capacity and magisterium to the universal faithful.  (agreed, de fide)
MINOR:  The Conciliar Church has taught heresy in an official capacity and in its magisterium.
CONCLUSION:  Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.

I actually agree with this conclusion and have argued this myself.  But here's the problem.

Look at the MINOR (which you've lost sight of due to your compression of the entire argument into it being a restatement of the Major alone).  When did the Church teach this?  Never, since the Church has been in eclipse since this whole thing started.  We have arrived at this conclusion based on our private judgment.

Because the MINOR only has fallible private judgment behind it, the conclusion also depends on fallible and non-authoritative private judgment.

Ah, but the SV would respond:  Vatican II was condemned by past Magisterium.  No it wasn't, not explicitly.  It is your contention and argument that the propositions in Vatican II contradict previous Magisterium, but the Church has not officially ruled on whether that was in fact the case.  I've seen decent and plausible attempts to argue that the teachings of V2 can be interpreted in a way that's consistent with the previous Magisterium.  I do not agree with that, but this is MY OPINION.  I cannot bind consciences.  I have no authority.  Neither do you.

So you call this simple because you OVER-simplify it, compressing the entire argument into the Major alone.  And then because the Major is in fact de fide, you falsely believe that the conclusion is also.

THIS here is the chief error of dogmatic SVism.


A few responses are in order.

a) The compression of the argument into a single proposition is all that is necessary because a person would then be able to extrapolate the rest of the premises by simple observation.

b) The issue is not Vatican II. This is a straw man. Rather, the problems are the observable heretical and pernicious teachings of the post Vatican II magisterium which are demonstrably in discontinuity and in direct violation of prior Church teaching. These cannot be posited into a hermeneutical continuity by even the most ardent supporters of that hypothesis. This possibility ended with Bergoglio’s death penalty revision, Amoris Laetitia, and similar matters.

c) Your theory of epistemology is a contradictory and self refuting one which destroys the very possibility of attaining knowledge. See my other responses on this issue.