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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42774 times)

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2022, 07:41:56 PM »
Dogmatic non una cuм is straight from the pit of Hell and is a tool used by Satan to keep traditional Catholics from comingling or from the sacraments altogether.

I've said this before, but, there is absolutely no historical or Magisterial basis for non una cuм. At all. It is a novelty dreamed up by Bp. Guerard des Lauriers and later catapulted by Fr. Cekada into the only "Catholic" position. Citing an early 19th century English Missal, John Daly noted that the King of England is also prayed una cuм in the Mass following the Pope and the Ordinary; proving that the intention is that the Mass is offered through the office of the one named, not the person. Otherwise, all English Masses would have been mortally sinful to assist at because the Anglican King of England was named una cuм.

Furthermore, we have the Western Schism to look at as well. Where saints, such as St. Vincent Ferrer, supported the later-declared anti-Pope over the true Pope; therefore, meaning that he offered Masses una cuм an anti-Pope, and, by the logic of this position would have been offending God by committing a grave sin. Yet, as we know, St. Vincent was a great saint who was merely mistaken on the identity of the Pope, and therefore, was not at fault. One could retort that anti-Pope Benedict XIII was "orthodox" therefore nullifying any such comparisons between anti-Pope Francis and Benedict XIII. But this, too, is nonsense, as it either way, by their logic, the Masses said by St. Vincent would still be gravely sinful because a false Pope was named in the Canon.

Therefore, to dogmatically declare that there is not only sin attached to assisting at a Mass una cuм Francesco, but even a mortal sin, is beyond the authority of those proclaiming it: namely, SGG and MHTS. It is correct to form an opinion on the Pope question, or even act on it individually, but to teach the laity that it would be a sin to attend an SSPX, or even SSPX-Resistance, Mass because they say it una cuм Francesco is divisive, diabolism.

"And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
[Mark 3:25]
I own a pair of English printed hand missals, from the early 1800s, one which I think is what Mr Daly cited (there's a scan of it in full on archive.org), and also a priestly missal (a bit bigger than a Maryknoll missal and with a fine cover, which is a bit fragile) with the same, used in Co. Kilkenny, Ireland from the late 19th century onwards. Neither Queen Victoria nor Edward VII were Catholic, even if her son loved France and its women. That's a very strong summary done by you on the matter. Non una cuм seems a device to keep people from going to other chapels.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2022, 07:46:13 PM »
Any kind of Communicatio in Sacris/Divinis with a heretic and/or schismatic or Communicatio in Sacris/Divinis with those in communion with a heretic or schismatic was unanimously held to be forbidden by all of the Church Fathers & Church Councils as well as the vast majority of theologians, Popes, and Doctors of the Church.

The logic is simple.

a) If Bergoglio is a heretic then one cannot be in communion with him, directly or indirectly, (knowingly and intentionally) under pain of heresy and mortal sin.

b) The CMRI & similar groups believe Bergoglio is a heretic.

c) The CMRI and similar groups are in indirect communion with Bergoglio. i.e. They are in communion with those who are directly in communion with Bergoglio such as the SSPX which offers the Una cuм Mass.

d) The CMRI and similar groups are heretics themselves for being in intentional indirect communion with a man they consider a heretic.



In conclusion, if you believe that Bergoglio is a heretic and you are in communion with him directly (Una cuм) or indirectly (being in communion with those who offer Una cuм) then you are a heretic as well.
That's all well and good, but, how can any of that apply if Francis has never been formally declared a heretic by the Holy Office? I can believe that someone is a heretic, but, that remains in the realm of my opinion, especially when pertaining to clergy or the Pontiff, until the Church makes a declaration.

Further, those instances you cite apply to communion with formal heretics, such as the Greeks or Anglicans etc. While many suspect the Novus Ordo is not the Catholic Church, this, again, has not been defined by the Holy Office. So I fail to see how that falls into Communicatio in Sacris?


Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2022, 07:54:55 PM »
That's all well and good, but, how can any of that apply if Francis has never been formally declared a heretic by the Holy Office? I can believe that someone is a heretic, but, that remains in the realm of my opinion, especially when pertaining to clergy or the Pontiff, until the Church makes a declaration.

Further, those instances you cite apply to communion with formal heretics, such as the Greeks or Anglicans etc. While many suspect the Novus Ordo is not the Catholic Church, this, again, has not been defined by the Holy Office. So I fail to see how that falls into Communicatio in Sacris?

Kindly refer to proposition “b)” in my initial post. The CMRI, and similar groups, believe that Bergoglio is a heretic. So formally declared or not, they are in communion with other groups, like the SSPX, which are in communion with a man they (the CMRI) believe to be a heretic. 

This is analogous to the objective schism that the SSPX is in due to their belief that Bergoglio is a valid Roman Pontiff yet they refuse obedience to him.

These groups do not have any internal theological consistency or logical coherence regardless of where you stand on these issues.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2022, 08:23:58 PM »
This is analogous to the objective schism that the SSPX is in due to their belief that Bergoglio is a valid Roman Pontiff yet they refuse obedience to him.

These groups do not have any internal theological consistency or logical coherence regardless of where you stand on these issues.
I can agree with that. Again, symptomatic of the fact that there is not a Catholic Pope to provide consistency and unity. So they, like us laymen, run around with their heads cut off, so to speak.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2022, 08:31:47 PM »
Any kind of Communicatio in Sacris/Divinis with a heretic and/or schismatic or Communicatio in Sacris/Divinis with those in communion with a heretic or schismatic was unanimously held to be forbidden by all of the Church Fathers & Church Councils as well as the vast majority of theologians, Popes, and Doctors of the Church.

The logic is simple.

a) If Bergoglio is a heretic then one cannot be in communion with him, directly or indirectly, (knowingly and intentionally) under pain of heresy and mortal sin.

b) The CMRI & similar groups believe Bergoglio is a heretic.

c) The CMRI and similar groups are in indirect communion with Bergoglio. i.e. They are in communion with those who are directly in communion with Bergoglio such as the SSPX which offers the Una cuм Mass.

d) The CMRI and similar groups are heretics themselves for being in intentional indirect communion with a man they consider a heretic.
The only way this "logic" is correct is that if a person does not believe Bergoglio is a heretic, that person (i.e., a priest who offers Mass "una cuм") is, by that fact alone, also a heretic.

It seems that the CMRI is being condemned for not being dogmatic sedevacantists.  This is a rather curious position to take on CathInfo.