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Offline bodeens

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Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« on: January 27, 2022, 09:12:34 PM »
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  • TR has always been a very mixed bag at best but their latest article is disgusting and attacks the CMRI in a way that's inconsistent (brings into question SGG and MHTS at the same time due to SGG orders and MHTS coming from +McKenna) and screams controlled op with every meme possible (Pre 55 week, dogmatic non una cuм etc). I actually waited a couple of days on this one to give him the benefit of the doubt but Heiner kept this up. It's unfortunate but for a "clerically focused apostalate" this is a room-temperature IQ article. I know there are a few TR members (Colin and some others here), so he goes..

    https://www.truerestoration.org/why-the-cmri-is-not-an-option-for-serious-catholics/

    Why the CMRI Is Not an Option for Serious Catholics
    BY STEPHEN HEINER · JANUARY 21, 2022

    There is no Wikipedia for traditional Catholicism. One has to learn things over time from various sources and even then, one has to then contend against the widespread malformation of human minds worldwide, general disrespect of clergy, and the frequent failure to recognize the laity’s proper role in subordination to those clergy. Coming to proper Christian thinking and acting at every moment is a long process, never likely to be fully achieved by many of us during this life.
    I did not come to the non una cuм position right away. My journey from ten years in the SSPX (“recognize and resist”) position to sedevacantism took roughly two years, but it would be another two before I would stop attending the SSPX Mass in Kansas City, where I lived.
    This was in part due to my emotional attachment to the sacraments, but also because there were clerical voices telling me that attendance at these Masses was permissible. One of those voices was Bishop Mark Pivarunas of the CMRI.
    In 2011, returning from a CMRI ordination in Spokane which I had attended, I ran into His Excellency in the airport and in the course of a brief discussion I disclosed, somewhat shamefacedly, that I attended Mass with the SSPX. Rather than rebuke this position, the bishop merely said something to the effect of “what else can you do” and said that he understood.
    Lest my anecdote be marginalized as permissive in my particular case but contrary to the actual rule, there is also a publicly available docuмent in which Bishop Pivarunas defends attendance at una cuм Masses as legitimate and permissible in itself.
    Assistance at an una cuм Mass is objective participation in the modernist Novus Ordo. There’s simply no getting around this.
    The CMRI acknowledges that Bergoglio and several of his predecessors are clearly not vicars of Christ, instead enemies of God and His Church. Yet the CMRI permits, and in some cases, encourages people to attend Masses that name him in the Canon.
    Growing up conservative Novus Ordo, I still remember my father occasionally painfully telling us that “what Father said today wasn’t right.”  Do people who attend una cuм Masses want to undermine clerical authority in the minds and hearts of their children when they too have to “correct” Father’s words on the ride home from Mass? I can just imagine the conversation, “Daddy, what did Father mean in the sermon when he said that we have a duty to resist ‘Rome’ and the Pope?  I thought there wasn’t a Pope.”  From the mouths of babes…
    The CMRI’s laxity on this issue is only more troubling when compounded by their permissiveness in the creation of annulment tribunals. The SSPX has engaged in this sham for years, but it has been known for some time that some of the CMRI’s priests engage in the judging of marriage cases. But this is something that falls directly under the legal functions of the Church and does not fall under epikeia. No one currently possesses the authority to issue judgments in these marriage cases and so the best our clergy can do is investigate to give someone some sense of probability, but no more than that.
    In any case, the fact that even as late as 1968 there were only 338 annulments given for the entire United States that year should give helpful context in this regard.
    In our unfortunate situation, there is an easy and effective way for these people to solve their marital dilemmas: abstinence and chastity.  One should not risk a “re-marriage” if one’s “previous” marriage is doubtful or probably invalid.
    ***
    There are positions that the CMRI holds that are legitimate disagreements with fellow Catholics. For example, they observe the new Holy Week, which is very close to the same Holy Week used by the Novus Ordo (because Bugnini and his cronies used Holy Week as a test run for the rest of the Missal). When Pius XII issued the changes it was part of something transitional, not meant to be permanent.
    The CMRI argues that it was a valid act of a valid legislator and in that case they are correct. The New Holy Week is a Catholic rite and one may attend it in good conscience.
    Yet those of us who have done the research or who have read Fr Anthony Cekada’s masterful work on the Novus Ordo, cannot ignore what we now know in hindsight: this Holy Week was the beginning of the end of the Catholic Faith for millions and hence it may be reasonably argued that given the intentions and the outcome of those reforms, a Catholic’s safest option is in an unchanged liturgy. Since the same incorrect liturgical and doctrinal principles are at work in the changed rites of Holy Week as in the Novus Ordo Mass, why accept the beginnings while refusing the end?
    That said, this is still a matter capable of dispute. Both the CMRI and clergy on the other side of the argument have reasonable and coherent arguments on the issue of Holy Week. That will be an issue that will be resolved by the Church if we, unworthy though we have been and continue to be, ever get to see a restoration.
    But the attendance at Mass in which a heretic is named in the Canon? Is this a question that is capable of dispute? One might look to the example of the French church during the Revolution. Pope Pius VI said that hosts consecrated by juring priests (those who took an oath to the Constitutional French church) were to be left in their tabernacles to decompose, as no Christian should associate with these hosts brought down in opposition to God and His Church. And those hosts were made into Our Lord during a Mass in which the valid and gloriously reigning Holy Father was named!
    That same gloriously reigning Father said the following in his encyclical condemning the Civil Constitution on the Clergy, “Keep away from all intruders, whether called archbishops, bishops, or parish priests; do not hold communion with them especially in divine worship.” (Emphasis mine).
    How do we think the authorities of the Church would react to “well, there weren’t any other valid Masses in our area” as the reason for attending una cuм Masses? If you simply “want to attend a valid Mass” then why not go to the so-called Orthodox? Many of them possess valid orders. The answer is simple: because the so-called Orthodox are conducting a liturgy in opposition to God and His Church. So too with una cuм Masses.
    In the aforementioned publicly available (and linked) 2002 letter elliptically defending the case for attending una cuм Masses (by stating that attendance at such Masses cannot be forbidden, which isn’t the point), Bishop Pivarunas concludes his remarks by saying that if una cuм was such a big issue, why did it not come up earlier?
    The answer is not immediately obvious. When Vatican II happened, a kind of bomb went off and clerics and laity struggled to find their bearings and each other in the rubble. Once they treated the wounded and reestablished an unblemished offering of the Son to the Father, they were free to turn their minds to other things.
    Bp Donald Sanborn, once an opinionist, wrote against opinionism. Fr Anthony Cekada, once una cuм, wrote against the una cuм Mass. The same Fr Cekada wrote in defense of Archbishop Thuc and the CMRI. Christians err and it is magnificent when they admit their errors and acknowledge how truly misguided it is for dust and ashes to be proud. The clergy above admitted to their errors on issues, repudiated their former positions publicly, and changed. That same door is open to the CMRI, should they wish to go through it and stop judging marriage cases on their own authority and stop telling people they can and should go to una cuм Masses.
    Until such time, however, serious Catholics cannot consider the CMRI a safe place to be properly formed in the Catholic Faith. The errors in thinking we have mentioned inevitably lead to errors in other areas which we have not, and we believe we have a responsibility as a traditional Catholic content company to state our concerns and reasons for those concerns.
    Some possibly privately disagree with the CMRI’s positions on the issues we have mentioned and attend the Masses offered by a CMRI priest who privately disagrees, or at least does not publicly agree, with them. However, this does not change the fact that the priest is associated with an organization that is lax towards the una cuм issue and is permissive in the ”granting” of annulments. One who attends such a priest’s Masses associates with that organization and its public positions.
    We believe that until the CMRI changes its positions on these important issues, the CMRI is not an option for serious Catholics. We cannot, in good conscience, represent in any way that we encourage anyone to associate with such an organization until these problems are addressed with the seriousness and gravity they deserve.
    This article is also available in French, Italian, and Spanish.
    Image: Triumph of St Hermengild - Francisco Herrera the Younger, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons




    Stephen Heiner
    Stephen lives in Moret-sur-Loing, France. He founded True Restoration in 2006.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.


    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #1 on: January 27, 2022, 09:13:43 PM »
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  • After Heiner posted this article I realized Heiner doubled down and is obviously not backing down from this position :sleep::sleep:

    https://www.truerestoration.org/who-we-work-with/

    Who We Work With
    BY TR STAFF · JANUARY 22, 2022

    Restoration Radio began in 2012 as another branch of the blog Stephen Heiner started in 2006. Before 2011 he was still attending Mass with the SSPX and conducted interviews with their clergy. But as time went on he came to the non una cuм sedevacantist position and we removed those interviews and others from our sites.
    We have built relationships with clergy from all over the world and their connection with each other has not always been entirely obvious. It’s as good a time as any to list their common traits. All the clergy who are featured on our network:
    * Are uncompromisingly non una cuм
    * Are non opinionist
    * Use the pre-1955 Holy Week
    Any clergy who do not fit all three of these conditions have been removed from our episode listings.
    The majority of the clergy who work with us belong to either the RCI or the IMBC, which hold to the Thesis, but we have had totalist clergy that work with us and continue to do so. We agree with Fr. Anthony Cekada’s position that there are various and differing opinions about how the problem of Vatican II will be solved.
    We are fundamentally attached to Pope Pius XI’s idea of Catholic Action, which is lay-initiated but clerically supervised. The episodes on our network, the articles we publish, and even the books we sell in our bookstore are subject to clerical censure and removal and have been for years. Additionally we do not promote any lay work (like YouTube videos) unless the laity explicitly state that their videos have been reviewed and approved by the clergy.
    As unapologetic clericalists we believe that the laity have a role to play, but only in submission to clergy. That submission, and the interior life that overflows in an exterior apostolate, as articulated by Dom Chautard in The Soul of the Apostolate, is what we aspire to each and every day.
    We ask for your prayers as we, as a team, strive to be of service to Our Lord and His Church.




    TR Staff
    True Restoration Staff

    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #2 on: January 27, 2022, 09:33:32 PM »
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  • Dogmatic non una cuм is straight from the pit of Hell and is a tool used by Satan to keep traditional Catholics from comingling or from the sacraments altogether.

    I've said this before, but, there is absolutely no historical or Magisterial basis for non una cuм. At all. It is a novelty dreamed up by Bp. Guerard des Lauriers and later catapulted by Fr. Cekada into the only "Catholic" position. Citing an early 19th century English Missal, John Daly noted that the King of England is also prayed una cuм in the Mass following the Pope and the Ordinary; proving that the intention is that the Mass is offered through the office of the one named, not the person. Otherwise, all English Masses would have been mortally sinful to assist at because the Anglican King of England was named una cuм.

    Furthermore, we have the Western Schism to look at as well. Where saints, such as St. Vincent Ferrer, supported the later-declared anti-Pope over the true Pope; therefore, meaning that he offered Masses una cuм an anti-Pope, and, by the logic of this position would have been offending God by committing a grave sin. Yet, as we know, St. Vincent was a great saint who was merely mistaken on the identity of the Pope, and therefore, was not at fault. One could retort that anti-Pope Benedict XIII was "orthodox" therefore nullifying any such comparisons between anti-Pope Francis and Benedict XIII. But this, too, is nonsense, as it either way, by their logic, the Masses said by St. Vincent would still be gravely sinful because a false Pope was named in the Canon.

    Therefore, to dogmatically declare that there is not only sin attached to assisting at a Mass una cuм Francesco, but even a mortal sin, is beyond the authority of those proclaiming it: namely, SGG and MHTS. It is correct to form an opinion on the Pope question, or even act on it individually, but to teach the laity that it would be a sin to attend an SSPX, or even SSPX-Resistance, Mass because they say it una cuм Francesco is divisive, diabolism.

    "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
    [Mark 3:25]
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #3 on: January 27, 2022, 09:38:01 PM »
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  • Also, nice that he needs to cite Bp. Sanborn's other novelty: "opinionism". Condemning any and all theological opinions that go against the party line of his sedevacantist group.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #4 on: January 27, 2022, 09:42:48 PM »
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  •  ...is beyond the authority of those proclaiming it...
    Exactly.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #5 on: January 27, 2022, 09:50:23 PM »
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  • Avignon->Papal schism would seem to be a problem at a more mechanical level for dogmatic non una cuм as well.

    Anybody monopolizing truth in the Crisis probably has issues. Even though it apparently isn't Catholic enough for some of these people, His Excellency +Pivarunas' positions have aged well, taking a minimal approach to anything outside canon law and focusing on growth and getting sacraments to the laity.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #6 on: January 27, 2022, 09:51:47 PM »
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  • Avignon->Papal schism would seem to be a problem at a more mechanical level for dogmatic non una cuм as well.
    How so?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #7 on: January 27, 2022, 09:58:14 PM »
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  • How so?
    You're right, I'm retarded and not thinking clearly. I retract.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #8 on: January 27, 2022, 10:03:59 PM »
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  • Anybody monopolizing truth in the Crisis probably has issues. Even though it apparently isn't Catholic enough for some of these people, His Excellency +Pivarunas' positions have aged well, taking a minimal approach to anything outside canon law and focusing on growth and getting sacraments to the laity.
    Listening to a conference by +Pivarunas where he touched on the una cuм issue was the thing that pulled me from despair as I was exploring the sedevacantist position. This issue is the one thing that never sat right with me, and it is because it isn't supported by Canon Law or Catholic teaching, yet is presented as such by +Sanborn, +Cekada, +Dolan and places like Novus Ordo Watch as essential to being a "true" Catholic (rather than a dreaded "semi-Trad")

    You're right, I'm retarded and not thinking clearly. I retract.
    No you're not.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #9 on: January 27, 2022, 11:01:10 PM »
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  • Offline Marion

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #10 on: January 27, 2022, 11:11:34 PM »
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  • We all have to form our conscience, and then follow what our conscience dictates. Even if some may think that they're more "ecuмenical" or "Jєωιѕн" if they ridicule the principle.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #11 on: January 27, 2022, 11:14:56 PM »
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  • It's not the disagreement that's problematic. It's the presumptuous anathemata and counter-anathemata that are problematic.  No man alive on this Earth has the jurisdiction for such anathemata (especially not the monster "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter).

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #12 on: January 27, 2022, 11:20:14 PM »
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  • It's not the disagreement that's problematic. It's the presumptuous anathemata and counter-anathemata that are problematic.  No man alive on this Earth has the jurisdiction for such anathemata (especially not the monster "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter).


    You're sedevacantist, aren't you? You and I and everyone else, we have to form our conscience, and act accordingly. I avoid people who I deem heretics, but I don't condemn anyone for drawing their own conclusions.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #13 on: January 28, 2022, 05:21:08 AM »
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  • But Dolan/sanborn/selway just gave an annulment so a man could marry Bp selway’s niece.  The man was married one day, not the next, married into the selways the next.  This person goes to a satellite mass center of Bp Dolan’s in Wisconsin.  He left the church and got married. Couple years later he came back and a couple months after that he was married to a Selway girl in the church.  No wedding banns of course, completely against canon law, the marriage being hush hush. I guess Bp Selway and Dolan meant chastity and being single for people who want to marry a non-Selway.

    These guys are a joke 

    Offline nctradcath

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    Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
    « Reply #14 on: January 28, 2022, 05:49:58 AM »
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  • But Dolan/sanborn/selway just gave an annulment so a man could marry Bp selway’s niece.  The man was married one day, not the next, married into the selways the next.  This person goes to a satellite mass center of Bp Dolan’s in Wisconsin.  He left the church and got married. Couple years later he came back and a couple months after that he was married to a Selway girl in the church.  No wedding banns of course, completely against canon law, the marriage being hush hush. I guess Bp Selway and Dolan meant chastity and being single for people who want to marry a non-Selway.

    These guys are a joke
    That is a serious charge that you bring forth without evidence.