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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42635 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2022, 12:08:54 PM »
Quote from: RomanTheo on January 29, 2022, 12:05:42 PM
Mystici Corporis Christi: "69. Now since its Founder willed this social body of Christ to be visible, the cooperation of all its members must also be externally manifest through their profession of the same faith and their sharing the same sacred rites, through participation in the same Sacrifice, and the practical observance of the same laws. Above all, it is absolutely necessary that the Supreme Head, that is, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, be visible to the eyes of all, since it is He who gives effective direction to the work which all do in common in a mutually helpful way towards the attainment of the proposed end."

So much for the Siri Theory.  Moreover, how could Siri have been  the Pope when he remained a member of the "Vatican II sect" that you claim lacks the four marks?  How can the member of a false Church be the Pope of the true Church? 

See, it's OK for YOU to "interpret" papal teaching and then declare your conclusions dogmatic, but not for the sedevacantists, eh?  This is talking about the ESSENTIAL perpetuity and visibility of the Holy See.  We already have the precedent of the Great Western schism which overturns your particular interpretation of this teaching.  We know that a prolonged vacancy of the Holy See is possible, and that too contradicts your interpretation of this teaching.

As for your second issue, I've repeatedly argued that there can be and are people who are formally Catholic who are nevertheless materially divided due to the Crisis.  This is the second time now that you've straw-manned me with the arguments of the dogmatic sedevacantists, which I have consistently opposed.  In fact, I argue that there are some bishops in the Church who continue to exercise ordinary jurisdiction.

You regularly lump all sedevacantists into the "dogmatic" sedevacantist camp, and this simply not the case.
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Offline OneShotPaddy

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2022, 12:13:07 PM »
Quote from: RomanTheo on January 29, 2022, 12:05:42 PM
Mystici Corporis Christi: "69. Now since its Founder willed this social body of Christ to be visible, the cooperation of all its members must also be externally manifest through their profession of the same faith and their sharing the same sacred rites, through participation in the same Sacrifice, and the practical observance of the same laws. Above all, it is absolutely necessary that the Supreme Head, that is, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, be visible to the eyes of all, since it is He who gives effective direction to the work which all do in common in a mutually helpful way towards the attainment of the proposed end."

So much for the Siri Theory.  Moreover, how could Siri have been  the Pope when he remained a member of the "Vatican II sect" that you claim lacks the four marks?  How can the member of a false Church be the Pope of the true Church? 

Can you explain how the Roman Pontiff was visible to the eyes of all during the Great Western Schism? How did the American Indians see the Pope with their eyes before Columbus sailed westward? Is Francis visible to the North Sentinelese? Perhaps he means visible to all of the Elect (and what does that mean for those who are saved by pseudo-Pelagian implicit desire)?  So many questions.

Clearly, "visible to all" must be interpreted differently than to how you have done so.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2022, 12:16:22 PM »
Quote from: OneShotPaddy on January 29, 2022, 12:13:07 PM
Can you explain how the Roman Pontiff was visible to the eyes of all during the Great Western Schism? How did the American Indians see the Pope with their eyes before Columbus sailed westward? Is Francis visible to the North Sentinelese? Perhaps he means visible to all of the Elect (and what does that mean for those who are saved by pseudo-Pelagian implicit desire)?  So many questions.

Clearly, "visible to all" must be interpreted differently than to how you have done so.

THIS^^^ ... exactly as I also responded.  RomanTheo has no problem asserting his own interpretation of papal teaching as dogma (and labelling those who deny it as heretics) while attacking the sedevacantists for doing the same thing.  There's a word for it that beings with an h.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2022, 12:24:42 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 29, 2022, 11:44:31 AM

  We do not apply our "reason" to judge individual teachings of that authority.

St. Paul told us to hold all teachings up against the Gospel, the teachings that have been communicated from Our Lord in Scripture and in traditions sacrosanct and handed down. Doesn't matter who they are from, they are to be judged by this standard:

Quote
Galatians 1:7-8


[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
Sed licet nos aut angelus de caelo evangelizet vobis praeterquam quod evangelizavimus vobis, anathema sit.

[9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Sicut praediximus, et nunc iterum dico : si quis vobis evangelizaverit praeter id quod accepistis, anathema sit.

Impossible to do that without "reason." 

A reasoning process is what tells one the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church. 

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Offline Jupiter

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2022, 12:25:59 PM »
I agree with RomanTheo. There is visibility today in the material structures of the Church. But what is it that is visible? Nothing but heresy, blasphemy, impiety, sacrilege, destruction, sin, and scandal.

This is the visibility of iniquity; not holiness.
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