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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42721 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2022, 08:35:16 PM »
I can agree with that. Again, symptomatic of the fact that there is not a Catholic Pope to provide consistency and unity. So they, like us laymen, run around with their heads cut off, so to speak.

I depends a bit on the flavor of "R&R" you're talking about.

1)  believe with the certainty of faith that he's the Pope and refuse submission -- this is definitely true of that position (though it can be excused subjectively due to the confusion of our times, and yet it's incredibly dangerous to Catholic faith).

2) believe that Bergoglio is probably (or maybe) the pope, but we have to give him the benefit of the doubt, so in the PRACTICAL order, given this doubt, we obey him when we can but don't when we can't ... this is OK (unlike #1)

3) believe that he's likely NOT a legitimate pope, but we don't have the authority to depose him (Cajetan / John of St. Thomas) while continuing to maintain that the indefectibility of the Church precludes a legitimate pope doing this kind of damage) -- this was the position of Archbishop Lefebvre (even though the proponents of #1 above deny it and falsely claim that +Lefebvre supported #1)

4) Father Chazal-ism / sedeprivationism -- pope is a manifest heretic who has lost all authority but remains technically / visibly / materially in possession of the office until declared otherwise by the Church (I'm actually of this mindset myself)

So the degree to which an "R&R" position is contrary to Catholic doctrine is a dialectic between how certain one is that the man is a legitimate pope and the degree to which we must obey him.  If there's even a chance he's the pope, in the practical order, the safer course is to obey him when we can acknowledge him in the Canon, etc. etc.

I think people try to oversimplify the SV vs. R&R debate.  Just as there are many flavors of SVism, so too there are many tacit flavors of R&Rism.  If you scratch just  bit below the surface, you'll find that very few Traditional Catholics would hold that the legitimacy of Beroglgio is dogmatic fact, certain with the certainty of faith, just as certain as that there are Three Divine Persons in One God.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2022, 08:44:22 PM »
The only way this "logic" is correct is that if a person does not believe Bergoglio is a heretic, that person (i.e., a priest who offers Mass "una cuм") is, by that fact alone, also a heretic.

It seems that the CMRI is being condemned for not being dogmatic sedevacantists.  This is a rather curious position to take on CathInfo.

That logic is a massive oversimplification, as the dogmatic extreme of either position tends to be.

This notion of "communion" and what constitutes "communion" is a bit slippery.  St. Pius X for instance permitted Catholics in Orthodox territories to receive the Sacraments from the Orthodox when they had no access to Catholic Sacraments.  Even the Dimonds wrote a good article about how a certain amount of intermingling with the Anglicans was permitted by the Church for various prudential considerations.

But here's where it's not so simple.  If I were to regularly attend Orthodox liturgies, I would certainly be suspect of herersy.  But the problem with the Conciliar Church is that it's not formally professing schism from the Catholic Church.  Conciliar Catholics, many of them anyway, believe that they are in the Catholic Church and continue to profess that they are Catholics.  In the latter case, it's more of a material error than a formal one, whereas with the officially-condemned groups like the Orthodox or Old Catholics of heretics, since they're formally and officially rejected as non-Catholic, there's no gray area.  But there's a ton of gray.

And this is the failure of the dogmatic positions.  They construct a neat syllogism that seems logically sound and conclude therefrom that their conclusions are dogmatically certain, but only the Church has the authority to bind consciences with the certainty of faith, and some or many of the premises to our conclusions come from our own personal private judgment and reasoning and therefore cannot have such certaint.  Father Jenkins, a moderate sedevacantist, agrees with this reasoning.

So, for instance, the premise for Traditional Catholicisim is [this, that, or the other heresy or error taught by the Conciliar Church].  But the Church hasn't officially declared the Conciliar Church to be non-Catholic, so right now the best we can hope to have is a personal moral certainty regarding the state of the Church.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2022, 09:04:31 PM »
Heiner's argument:  Not only can't you be in Communion with the Conciliar Church but you can't be in Communion with a group that says it's OK to be in Communion with the Conciliar Church.  So it's a view of "communion" with heresy being contagious ... like cooties.  So what if someone disagrees with this and says it's OK to be in Communion with a group who says it's OK to be in Communion with the Conciliar Church?  Well, I guess I can't be in Communion with them either.  See where this leads?  Home Aloneism .. where nobody is not in Communion by varying degrees of separationg from the Conciliar Church  At some point Heiner might just find himself the last Catholic on earth.

Heiner is going down a dark path here.  He may have to hit rock bottom before he realizes that he's veered off the path.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2022, 09:28:39 PM »
At some point Heiner might just find himself the last Catholic on earth.

Heiner is going down a dark path here.  He may have to hit rock bottom before he realizes that he's veered off the path.
Therein lies the temptation in this line of thought. It is a special form of pride where group A believes group B to be heretics, so group A must carry on the will of God as His chosen group. It's an insidious temptation that infects not only those making dogmatic statements of their own opinions, but a temptation all of us face as Traditional Catholics.

Tangent: This "pride of the chosen" is something I've been thinking about lately in context of the Last Days. As, after the promised Restoration of the Church, somehow a completely Catholic world will be deceived by the claims of the Antichrist to come. I believe that due to the laxity of our times, those who follow in this age of Restoration may birth a new Pharisaism. Not unlike the Babylonian Captivity, which, as a reaction, led the to the Pharisees of the Old Covenant. This kind of revived sanctimony may bring forth another, even worse, reactionary laxity that will be advantageous to the Antichrist.

We, as Traditional Catholics, need to tread carefully in esteeming ourselves too highly as a group.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2022, 01:52:11 AM »
Heiner's argument:  Not only can't you be in Communion with the Conciliar Church but you can't be in Communion with a group that says it's OK to be in Communion with the Conciliar Church.  So it's a view of "communion" with heresy being contagious ... like cooties.  So what if someone disagrees with this and says it's OK to be in Communion with a group who says it's OK to be in Communion with the Conciliar Church?  
Well, I guess I can't be in Communion with them either.  See where this leads?  Home Aloneism .. where nobody is not in Communion by varying degrees of separationg from the Conciliar Church  At some point Heiner might just find himself the last Catholic on earth.

Heiner is going down a dark path here.  He may have to hit rock bottom before he realizes that he's veered off the path.

---------This is the part of your post I wanted to quote--YOU SEE? I have been trying to explain this since I got here! It's one reason I have been talking about PRIDE! Does it make sense now?

Pride, intellectual pride, spiritual pride--read my posts--it's all there! THIS is why I don't read things here on CI to LEARN THE FAITH, Lad. This Heiner guy is a perfect example, and he is not the only one! I cannot come to CI, because there are too many people here on CI with their "own" spin on too many things! (And of course CI is not the only place, as is obvious--This other site True Restoration is one of oodles!

THAT IS WHY I KEEP THINGS SIMPLE in what I read, and from where. Otherwise, all the Heiners of the world (and there are many) are a danger to my Faith, and not a help!