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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42508 times)

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #205 on: May 11, 2022, 07:12:46 PM »
Yes, I absolutely agree with this opinion.  By performing the rite, the minister is doing WHAT the Church does.  And the notion of "internal intention" is widely misinterpreted.

I use this analogy.  I hold a loaded gun to someone's head, pull the trigger.  Meanwhile, in my mind I'm saying, "I don't want him to die.  I don't intend that he die."  But by pulling the trigger you DID intend for him to die.  Based on this warped definition of "formal intent," one would argue that he didn't really formally kill the person because he didn't intend for him to die.  Of course he had the intent.  When he willed and intended ("internally") the cause, then he also willed the effect.

You could have a Satanist priest up there saying, "I don't intend to transubstantiate.  I don't intend to transubstantiate." but if he goes through and performs the Rite that the Church intends to effect transubstantiation, he certainly intended to do what the Church does, and the Church's intention for the effect is transubstantiation.

This warped notion of "formal" has also polluted some approaches to moral theology, such as regarding the jab.  It's also been the root justification for EENS denial.  But this concept has been abused and misapplied for the past few centuries.
How would this apply to the novus ordo mass? Do you believe that a new mass could be valid if a validly ordained priests offers it?

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #206 on: May 11, 2022, 07:33:40 PM »
How would this apply to the novus ordo mass? Do you believe that a new mass could be valid if a validly ordained priests offers it?
No, from my understanding, it is because the liturgy itself is still intended to be a memorial of the Last Supper and a Communal Meal rather than the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary. So, while a valid priest could do a valid consecration during the liturgy, that doesn't make the Novus Ordo a valid Mass. It goes back to the point I made above about the possibility for a valid consecration in a Black Mass. Sure, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ may be there on the altar, but the liturgy itself is not directed toward the same end as the Holy Mass.

I've attached a pdf of Patrick Omlor's excellent booklet on the validity of the Novus Ordo Missae, which is, if I remember correctly, tackles this issue.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #207 on: May 11, 2022, 07:40:58 PM »
How would this apply to the novus ordo mass? Do you believe that a new mass could be valid if a validly ordained priests offers it?

No, because the NO Rite itself is defective.  By removing the Offertory and replacing it with a тαℓмυdic table prayer, they have changed the nature of the Rite.  Of course with the "for all" translations that was certainly invalid.  Pope Leo XIII in discussing the Anglican Orders spoke of how a Rite, even when the essential form is valid, gets put into a non-Catholic context, it could be rendered invalid ex adjunctis (from the context and things around it).  If the Rite itself is defective, no amount of intention can override the defect.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #208 on: May 11, 2022, 07:42:19 PM »
I tried the Thuc route and got nothing but disappointment except one una cuм priest.

That's a different issue than validity of course, but I share your disappointment with many / most of the SV priests.  Among other things, including a tendency to coldness and bitterness, they're about the worst when it comes to EENS.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #209 on: May 11, 2022, 10:16:03 PM »
That's a different issue than validity of course, but I share your disappointment with many / most of the SV priests.  Among other things, including a tendency to coldness and bitterness, they're about the worst when it comes to EENS.
Zero theology, adamant about obedience to them, no common sense, off their rocker.