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Author Topic: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI  (Read 42874 times)

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #150 on: January 30, 2022, 04:08:12 PM »
Yes. The sacraments are indeed valid, but the Sedevacantist priests dispensing them are heretics for rejecting dogmas, nay even waging war on dogmas, of the Church. Bishop Sanborn’s views on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Natural Family Planning makes his group an impossible choice for me otherwise I am most well disposed to his group’s otherwise phenomenal work. They are especially to be commended on their correct understanding of Communicatio in Sacris and their torch bearing of the late Bishop Guerard des Lauriers’ Cassiciacuм Thesis.
I am not a theologian. In any way, shape or form.

I can still tell that this argument is awful. It's home-alone-ism on steroids. It can't end well.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #151 on: January 30, 2022, 04:11:20 PM »
I agree that lay folk cannot boil it all down to absolute facts (the Crisis, that is). But I'm not convinced that Catholic clergy can absolutely boil everything down either. As far as I recall (and I could be wrong), +ABL did not believe that he had all of the answers.

Perhaps Fr. Wathen believed that he did have all of the answers to the Crisis. For instance, you quoted him as believing that no one who maintains membership in the conciliar church can be saved. I don't recall that +ABL ever said that no one who maintains membership in the conciliar church can be saved. Since he was quite humble and knew his limitations, he did not condemn all who were members in the conciliar church. As he said many times - the Crisis is a mystery. Even though he knew full-well the problems with the conciliar church.
I am pretty sure the crisis can be boiled down to facts, but such a thing should be done and has, to a large extent, been done by learned priests, by those who've been commissioned and whose job it is to explain it to the sheep - Fr. Hesse is one, Fr. Wathen is another.

And there are a handful of others I could name who were around for the start of the revolution and answered many of the exact same questions and concerns decades ago that many folks still have today. I just figure, folks didn't listen then and still wont listen even today, which helps explain why many are still asking many of the same questions 60 years later.

+ABL, like most (not all) back then (and still even today) disbelieved that which they could not deny, which helps explain why +ABL never said what Fr. Wathen correctly said. Personally, I am of the opinion that +ABL very well could be a saint in heaven right now, but he made some mistakes - one of which was being weak on EENS which to some extent at least, shows in his SSPX to this day.

Anyway, our use of reason asks - why the fifth column at all if not to deceive the people into a false religion with sacrilegious worship - which is undeniably happening - if not to lead the people toward hell?
   


Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #152 on: January 30, 2022, 04:12:17 PM »
But you don't belong to the Church of Sanborn, you belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Why reject receiving Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament because of a frail imperfect human albeit a priest?
I can't seem to get past that with home aloners.  What am I missing?
Kind of sounds neo-donatist if you ask me.

Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #153 on: January 30, 2022, 04:13:22 PM »
But you don't belong to the Church of Sanborn, you belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Why reject receiving Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament because of a frail imperfect human albeit a priest?
I can't seem to get past that with home aloners.  What am I missing?
Actually, most home aloners that I have come in contact with online have a different take than Jupiter.  They believe that since there has been no papal mandate, then all of these traditional masses are illicit and mortally sinful to assist.  Quite honestly, I have never come across Jupiter's position wrt Vatican II nor home-aloneism in all the years I have been taking part in trad fora.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Heiner/TR attacks CMRI
« Reply #154 on: January 30, 2022, 04:18:26 PM »
So, IF the Conciliar Church is within the Catholic Church...

...THEN any and all members of the Conciliar Church are within the Catholic Church. 

Such a conclusion is absolutely necessary and unavoidable, at least according to Fr. Wathen's "logic" and "ecclesiology."
Yep, they're within it like a fifth column, all part of the fifth column. Don't forget that part or you'll not understand Fr. Wathen's "logic" and "ecclesiology" and end up disbelieving that which you cannot deny.