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Author Topic: Healthy criticism of Traditional Catholics vs. total disdain for the movement  (Read 1040 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Here is an example, for the sake of illustration:

Traditional Pride

Let us focus again on the topic of passing judgment on issues of Catholic traditions and customs. 


There are of course a sound number of "traditionalist Catholics" who have reached a more balanced viewpoint, who admit that there is more than one form of the mass.


They occasionally attend not only Eastern Catholic liturgies, but even mass at their local parish (a  mass often referred to as "the Novus Ordo", a misnomer for the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite which finds its origin in the docuмent presented by the Papal Commission to Blessed Paul VI summarizing the reforms being proposed, called "Novus Ordo Missae", "the new Order of the Mass").


A Catholic priest celebrates a Catholic mass


Yet, they still find it difficult to avoid finding issues that take their inner peace. 




They are not so much distressed by the details, though. For example, in the picture above they probably will not notice or complain about the two candles having a drawing and being both on the right, or about the microphone, or about the flowers on the left, or about the style of the altar - all things that would never escape the keen eye of the well-trained ultra-traditionalist).

What the ultra-traditionalist considers a "proper" Catholic altar


No, the issue of the "balanced traditionalist" consists mostly in policing the congregation's every whisper and the clergy's every move (or lack thereof - fault by omission). Even after attending Sunday mass in the rite of their choice, they may still criticize the sermon, because it was not "enough" for them.



Setting aside the issue of the congregation's behaviors and mis-behaviors, the issue of policing the clergy is most interesting due to the obvious contradiction.

What do I mean? Well, some of these men and women place the ministerial priesthood on a pedestal. The immediate consequence (at least in the ultra-traditionalist mindset) is that it leads to considering laymen (let's not even mention women) to be far below, even "impure". 


They are not to step on the sanctuary or touch sacred vessels, unless first they wear a cassock and gloves, to "cover" their lay state. Then, according to the rubrics they often make as they go, these laymen are duly authorized to carry out (almost) every function reserved to the  Acolyte. 

You see, once upon a time the Acolyte was a cleric, that is, no longer part of the laity. According to the existing norms of the Latin Church, the Acolyte is either a layman (or lay woman) authorized by the celebrant priest to serve as "extraordinary minister" for that one mass (a norm found in the GIRM and also true for the "Traditional Latin Mass") or an male lay minister instituted by the bishop. The Minor Orders (including "Acolyte [cleric]") were abrogated by Motu Propio Ministeria Quaedam (1972), and no longer confer entrance into the clerical state. They are allowed (but purely honorific) in Ecclesia Dei communities. And although this may come to a surprise to many, most "Latin Mass" altar servers (whether acolytes or crucifers or boat-bearers are actually extraordinary ministers and (despite the outer appearance that often makes the congregation mistake them for seminarians or priests) they are average Catholic laymen.


Placing the secular priest on a pedestal, however is no obstacle in criticizing a his words, actions, and omissions.


Indeed, when it comes to criticism, no tree is too tall for the traditionalist axes. Where possible, they are swift in acquiring as much control of the forest as possible, so that they may tell the trees which way to bend and how far to stretch their branches, and the taller the tree, the higher their voices are raised. [Let he who has ears hear]


At times, they gather like a flock of little birds, wishing to unite their sweet notes in what they call a "filial petition" toward the tallest of all tree, on whose roots all others are firmed and on whose branches all rest (them included).

However, their melody is rendered inaudible (as in "unbearable") by the disastrous dissonance of a joyful tempo paired to affronting lyricsAnd when it does not work, they  are ready to appeal to the nearby trees to gather together and depose the Tall One.


Sample Filial Petition


At the same time, not a week goes by without the same people congregating, dressed in their finest clothing, eating and drinking the finest food and wine, at some of the best restaurants in the "safe" neighborhoods, or enjoying the fine classical melodies of a touring orchestra - all of which they are eager to share through social media for the benefit of the cognoscenti.


Please do not misunderstand us, rather, bear with us for a few more moments (and a few more posts!). The Christian tradition has never prohibited the enjoyment of fine food, drink, pleasant music and good company!  The same tradition has always commanded us to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the most dignified manner possible, always offering our very best to God. Yet...
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Offline Matthew

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Of course, this jumped right out at me as something decidedly NOT Traditional Catholic, and positively hostile to it.

I have to actually sit down and think about the actual reasons why. But they do exist. Where do I begin?

Here are some of the dead giveaways:

1. Ignorance about so many matters (why lay servers wear Cassocks, for example)
2. Using the term "ultra-traditional". Ultra basically means "stupid", "extremist" or "like the Taliban" to these people.
3. Proudly showing off a Novus Ordo and calling it a Catholic Mass. See, I have enough experience to know that even Indult-attendees seldom or never do this (and they are debatably "Traditional Catholic"), and recognize-and-resist Catholics (SSPX, Resistance, independent) never do.
4. He is not merely critical about the flaws of individual Trads, but clearly has a problem with the Traditional Movement itself.

This man is one of those "Oh, I'm traditional, I prefer things to be properly according to the rubrics, and I even like a Latin Mass once in a while. But I'm not Traditional with a capital T, if you know what I mean..."

Well, CathInfo is for Traditional Catholics with a CAPITAL T. Those that fully embrace the Traditional Movement and leave behind the Novus Ordo (let the dead bury their dead). We seek out true/certain Masses and Sacraments (which means Tridentine Mass, and sacraments as they were given before Vatican II), and true, valid priests. 

And while a few of us (Indult, Rome-approved, diocesan "Summorum Pontificuм" indult) attend Tridentine Masses "with Roman permission", we don't believe we NEED that permission for legitimacy. At best, some of us "feel better" when we go to a Rome-approved locale. But if we were refused that option, we would happily attend any "illicit" Traditional Catholic Mass location, without any scruple of conscience. Traditional Catholics believe that the Church is for the good of souls, and not vice-versa. "The highest law is the salvation of souls." All other laws come in a distant second place at best.

That is a Traditional Catholic.
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Offline AlligatorDicax

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Traditional Catholics with a CAPITAL T  [who] fully embrace the Traditional Movement and leave behind the Novus Ordo (let the dead bury their dead).  We seek out true/certain [...] Sacraments (which means [...] sacraments as they were given before Vatican II), and true, valid priests.

Ah, yes: The Novus Ordo and "their dead".   One of the worst scenarios I could imagine for my soul--or for the souls of traditional Catholics in my family--would be requesting an urgent visit from a priest to administer the Sacrament of Extreme Unction.  But then after many minutes of anxiety, it's a Novus Ordo lay "extraördinary" minister who walks thro' the door, expecting the dying traditional Catholic be satisfied by receiving the N.O. "Blessing of the Sick"[×],  then to depart to do the same for the next person on her list.  Of course, a lay allegedly Catholic minister has no power to bestow grace nor to forgive sins confided in a last confession[†].

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Note ×: Or whatever the Novus Ordo calls its alleged replacement for the Sacrament of Extreme Unction.

Note †: I invented the phrase ad hoc; is there an unambiguous formal term for the confession heard by a priest during a visit to administer Extreme Unction?

Offline Nadir

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Ah, yes: The Novus Ordo and "their dead".   One of the worst scenarios I could imagine for my soul--or for the souls of traditional Catholics in my family--would be requesting an urgent visit from a priest to administer the Sacrament of Extreme Unction.  But then after many minutes of anxiety, it's a Novus Ordo lay "extraördinary" minister who walks thro' the door, expecting the dying traditional Catholic be satisfied by receiving the N.O. "Blessing of the Sick"[×],  then to depart to do the same for the next person on her list.  Of course, a lay allegedly Catholic minister has no power to bestow grace nor to forgive sins confided in a last confession[†].

-------
Note ×: Or whatever the Novus Ordo calls its alleged replacement for the Sacrament of Extreme Unction.

Note †: I invented the phrase ad hoc; is there an unambiguous formal term for the confession heard by a priest during a visit to administer Extreme Unction?


"a Novus Ordo lay "extraördinary" minister who walks thro' the door"

We had one of those come to help out with computer problems once. He was a person who had what we call "the gift of the gab" ans stayed on for ages talking basically nonsense. Suddenly he remembered that he had the Blessed Sacrament, an allegedly consecrated host for a sick visit, in his trouser pocket and had to make a quick getaway.

As for the N.O. "Blessing of the Sick", anybody with a cold can line up for it as they do to receive "communion in the hand", on specially appointed days.  I have no idea how they determine when the days might occur. It may depend on what epidemics are circulating for all I know.

Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

Offline Neil Obstat

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"a Novus Ordo lay "extraördinary" minister who walks thro' the door"

We had one of those come to help out with computer problems once. He was a person who had what we call "the gift of gab" and stayed on for ages talking basically nonsense. Suddenly he remembered that he had the Blessed Sacrament, an allegedly consecrated host for a sick visit, in his trouser pocket and had to make a quick getaway.
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Presuming for a moment that the host was really consecrated, this so-called extraordinary minister gave a poor example of how to behave in front of the Blessed Sacrament, and was not edifying in the least. One might say he committed blasphemy with his behavior. At best, he had forgotten all about the Host and only by chance suddenly remembered his duty to carry it to the sick. At worst, he had not forgotten it at all and deliberately wagged his tongue not unlike those who mocked Our Lord at Calvary, and then PRETENDED to suddenly remember as a convenient excuse to leave in haste, as if acting some part in a stage play.

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Presume for a moment the host was NOT validly consecrated, and that is sufficient in itself. But even so, the one who carried it gave scandal by his behavior, as if he were Protestant.

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I am always impressed to see how a Traditional priest behaves when he's carrying Viaticuм from the Mass to a sick person at a remote location. He does not engage in idle talk. For those new to this scene, he occasionally explains when needed that he doesn't like to stop and talk when he's carrying the Blessed Sacrament. He does not pause to chat with anyone on his way out. And parishioners whom he meets in his path are wont to kneel in silence facing him as he passes. It's even more edifying to see an altar server wearing cassock and surplice precede him carrying a lit candle, on his way to his car. 

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Offline Neil Obstat

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"Sample Filial Petition?"



Are you sure this isn't some kind of mistake? 

release the penguins
remove cattle from stage
Drive It!
Gong duet
add bicycle... begin to fall 
Lakers in 6
all Harpists stand up and wait (Sing, "Hey, hey, hey-o, ho hey!")
balance your chair on 2 legs
Moon-walk
continue "swimming" motion
p pp ppp f mf   <---[all in the same place] 
Gradually slide from 12-bar Blues to a more Vivaldi-like Cadenza. Intonation!
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Maybe this image was meant for another application?
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Offline Nadir

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At best, he had forgotten all about the Host and only by chance suddenly remembered his duty to carry it to the sick.

Yes, this is precisely the case.

 PRETENDED to suddenly remember as a convenient excuse to leave in haste,
No, he never would stop talking if he ever had someone to listen to him. Not the greatest choice for a person who was "ministering to the sick". But then there is little discernment in the conciliar establishment.


Presume for a moment the host was NOT validly consecrated, and that is sufficient in itself. But even so, the one who carried it gave scandal by his behavior, as if he were Protestant.

Precisely! Non-traditional establishments are protestants


I am always impressed to see how a Traditional priest behaves when he's carrying Viaticuм from the Mass to a sick person at a remote location. He does not engage in idle talk. For those new to this scene, he occasionally explains when needed that he doesn't like to stop and talk when he's carrying the Blessed Sacrament. He does not pause to chat with anyone on his way out. And parishioners whom he meets in his path are wont to kneel in silence facing him as he passes. It's even more edifying to see an altar server wearing cassock and surplice precede him carrying a lit candle, on his way to his car.

This is so edifying and uplifting. It is the type of behaviour which brings onlookers to repent and convert to the true Church. I remember seeing these things as a child before the changes. They are what makes for and illustrates Tradition.
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Offline Neil Obstat

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The source is a bit sloppy, methinks...
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Here is an example, for the sake of illustration:

Traditional Pride

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.
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A Catholic priest celebrates a Catholic mass



They are not so much distressed by the details, though. For example, in the picture above they probably will not notice or complain about the two candles having a [silly-looking] drawing and being both on the right, or about the microphone, or about the flowers on the left, or about the style of the altar - all things that would never escape the keen eye of the well-trained ultra-traditionalist).

...
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How could any such critic fail to notice that the microphone has taken the PLACE of any crucifix?
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And why is there a close-parenthesis at the end when there was no open-parenthesis previous?
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This looks like it came from Crisis Magazine or else the New Oxford Review. Am I far off the mark?
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Offline TKGS

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Presuming for a moment that the host was really consecrated, this so-called extraordinary minister gave a poor example...
Neil, you've been out of the Novus Ordo for a long time (if you were ever part of it).  What was described here is typical. He wasn't giving a "poor example" as far as they are concerned.  Talking it up and being sociable was what this fellow was likely taught is the most important part of the "job".

Offline Neil Obstat

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Neil, you've been out of the Novus Ordo for a long time (if you were ever part of it).  What was described here is typical. He wasn't giving a "poor example" as far as they are concerned.  Talking it up and being sociable was what this fellow was likely taught is the most important part of the "job".
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You're right, I didn't think of it that way, that the poor fellow was probably TRAINED to "talk it up" as the foremost part of the job. 
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This reminds me of a time years ago when I was at a Novus Ordo communion service and one host was accidentally dropped on the floor. They treated it as no big deal, which made me wonder, so I made a point to stay later and ask the "permanent deacon" about their apparent lack of concern. He assured me that he had been through training recently and they taught him that when a particle of host is small enough not to be recognizable as a bread fragment, that it "loses its character." 
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He was very careful to slow down and pronounce "loses its character" very precisely. He pointed his finger downward with each word. I kid you not.
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He was showing me how practiced he was at making known how much pride he had in his training. 
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This whole scene disturbed me to the point where I sought out the pastor emeritus in residence. He was an old Irish priest ordained in the 1950's. I told him about the host falling down and how nobody did anything special to be sure that no fragments broke off. He told me, wistfully, that "Long ago they had a special washing they would do" whenever a consecrated Host or some of the Precious Blood fell anywhere.  He continued with resignation: "But we're not doing that anymore." -- He seemed to be a bit attached to the former ways but neither was he about to be making any statement against the changes.
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Offline Neil Obstat

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  • Ah, yes: The Novus Ordo and "their dead".   One of the worst scenarios I could imagine for my soul--or for the souls of traditional Catholics in my family--would be requesting an urgent visit from a priest to administer the Sacrament of Extreme Unction.  But then after many minutes of anxiety, it's a Novus Ordo lay "extraördinary" minister who walks thro' the door, expecting the dying traditional Catholic be satisfied by receiving the N.O. "Blessing of the Sick"[×],  then to depart to do the same for the next person on her list.  Of course, a lay allegedly Catholic minister has no power to bestow grace nor to forgive sins confided in a last confession[†].

    -------
    Note ×: Or whatever the Novus Ordo calls its alleged replacement for the Sacrament of Extreme Unction.

    Note †: I invented the phrase ad hoc; is there an unambiguous formal term for the confession heard by a priest during a visit to administer Extreme Unction?
    .
    The term I've heard most consistently is "Anointing of the Sick." Its purpose is first of all to help the recipient feel better, so it's directed at recovery from illness, which is not too much different from "reconciliation" inasmuch as being reconciled with someone makes you feel better in their company.
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