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Author Topic: Pius XII's consecration of Russia  (Read 783 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Pius XII's consecration of Russia
« on: March 22, 2022, 08:40:54 PM »
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    • In light of the recent, absurd leftist dog-and-pony show that Bergoglio is going to perform this Friday, I came across something recently that got my attention.

    I've been hearing for most of my life about how Pius XII consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart in fulfillment of Our Lady's request at Fatima, and how some people say that fulfilled Our Lady's request, and some say it didn't. I never paid much attention until I saw someone actually quote his words to argue that this fulfilled the request at Fatima, and I was very surprised at what I saw.

    Our Lady said at Fatima that the pope must consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart.
    Pope Pius XII consecrated "the peoples of Russia" to her Immaculate Heart.

    This is very bizarre. If Pope Pius XII intended to fulfill Our Lady's request, why did he change the wording? Wouldn't he just do a copy/paste of the words of Fatima? Why would he go out of his way to change such a simple expression? And what is the difference between what Our Lady said and what Pope Pius XII said?

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Pius XII's consecration of Russia
    « Reply #1 on: March 22, 2022, 08:46:12 PM »
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    • https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/pope-to-consecrate-russiaukraine-on-march-25!/msg814211/#msg814211



    Quote from: Ladislaus on March 19, 2022, 04:04:34 PM
    Interestingly, by the time Our Lady came to request the consecration of Russian in 1929, there was no Russia as a country.  USSR was established in 1922.  So that was probably a hint that the consecration wouldn't actually take place until "Russia" was a country again.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/pope-to-consecrate-russiaukraine-on-march-25!/msg814213/#msg814213


    Quote from: 2Vermont on March 19, 2022, 04:26:03 PM
    Hmmm.  Interesting.  In fact, the USSR came to be in November, 1917 [Edit: I'm finding different info on the date...1917, 1921, 1922]. 

    Could this be why the pre-Vatican II popes did not do the consecration by naming the country of "Russia"? Maybe that's why they held off?


    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/pope-to-consecrate-russiaukraine-on-march-25!/msg814217/#msg814217




    Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 19, 2022, 04:38:16 PM
    Might explain why Pius XII said "peoples of Russia", as it didn't exist as a nation at that time.
    And if this is the case, then it would also explain why Our Lady said it would be done "late" because Russia did not exist as a nation until after 1991, and perhaps won't completely exist until the Ukraine is obtained.

    But, this seems like splitting hairs and Bergoglio most likely isn't formally the Pope.



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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Pius XII's consecration of Russia
    « Reply #2 on: March 22, 2022, 08:49:39 PM »
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    • I believe it was an imperfect consecration, like all the rest. As was made clear to me after erroneously thinking it was "good enough." It wasn't.

    He did not order the bishops to perform it in union with him, as it was a consecration done by Pius XII himself in a letter. The "peoples of Russia" clause probably came from the political climate of the era (not really unlike our own today), and a weakness on his part to just go through with it. It could even be seen as providential in the fact that he wasn't doing it according to the request of Our Lady anyway.

    Lad posted in one of the other threads the quotes of Our Lady on the consecration itself:


    Quote
    Our Lady to Sister Lucia at Tuy, 1929:

    Quote
    Quote
    Then Our Lady said to me: “ The moment has come when God asks the Holy Father to make, in union with all the bishops of the world, the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means.”

    “ So numerous are the souls that the justice of God condemns for sins committed against Me, that I come to ask for reparation. Sacrifice yourself for this intention and pray.”


    Sister Lucia elaborated in 1930:

    Quote
    Quote
    The good Lord promises to end the persecution in Russia, if the Holy Father will himself make a solemn act of reparation and consecration of Russia to the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, as well as ordering all the bishops of the Catholic world to do the same.

    As you can see, Pius XII did no consecration in union with all the bishops of the world, and did not order them to do so. And he did not exclusively consecrate Russia itself, but the "peoples of Russia".

    In all honesty, this consecration should've been done when it was requested as it would have been extremely easy for Pope Pius XI or Pius XII to command the bishops to do so on a set date at a set time to say a prayer that doesn't need to be much more than a paragraph-long statement.

    God gives us such simple things to do, and because of original sin we bungle it all up. :facepalm:
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII's consecration of Russia
    « Reply #3 on: March 22, 2022, 09:12:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 22, 2022, 08:49:39 PM
    ... a prayer that doesn't need to be much more than a paragraph-long statement.

    Shhhh.  Don't tell that to Bergoglio.  Heck, it's just one sentence really.  Bergoglio turned it into a mini-book, a Modernist manifesto really.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Pius XII's consecration of Russia
    « Reply #4 on: March 23, 2022, 10:03:57 AM »
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    • Quote
    Interestingly, by the time Our Lady came to request the consecration of Russian in 1929, there was no Russia as a country.  USSR was established in 1922.  So that was probably a hint that the consecration wouldn't actually take place until "Russia" was a country again.


    Okay, this is an interesting point, but I'm not really convinced. If Our Lady appeared when Russia was called the USSR, and requested that "Russia" be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, and requested that that be done immediately, then she obviously knew the place was called USSR, and yet referred to it as Russia. So she obviously wanted Russia to be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart. The pope could have just consecrated Russia, and if someone objected that Russia didn't exist, he could have said, "Well, tell that to Our Lady."

    Besides, if Russia didn't exist in that time period, then neither did the "peoples of Russia".

    It doesn't really make sense to say that Heaven would tell mankind to do something that is impossible, knowing that the command will be disobeyed anyway. God doesn't command anything impossible.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Pius XII's consecration of Russia
    « Reply #5 on: March 23, 2022, 11:59:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on March 23, 2022, 10:03:57 AM

    Okay, this is an interesting point, but I'm not really convinced. If Our Lady appeared when Russia was called the USSR, and requested that "Russia" be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, and requested that that be done immediately, then she obviously knew the place was called USSR, and yet referred to it as Russia. So she obviously wanted Russia to be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart. The pope could have just consecrated Russia, and if someone objected that Russia didn't exist, he could have said, "Well, tell that to Our Lady."

    Besides, if Russia didn't exist in that time period, then neither did the "peoples of Russia".

    It doesn't really make sense to say that Heaven would tell mankind to do something that is impossible, knowing that the command will be disobeyed anyway. God doesn't command anything impossible.
    What I meant, at least in my comment, was that temporally there was no "Russia", albeit God knows the bounds of that nation regardless, so this was a defect on behalf of these Popes and not Our Lady.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]
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