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Author Topic: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?  (Read 1125 times)

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Offline poenitens

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Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
« on: July 14, 2023, 10:51:02 PM »
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  • I think I read somewhere that before VII, or at least right after Trent, it was customary to conditionally baptize all protestant converts. Is it true?

    NOTE: I know that anybody, even a raging heretic, can confer a valid baptism provided that he observes the matter and form and has the right intention. That's what the theory says, in practice, the Church could not trust the intention of protestant ministers and their observance of matter and form was always put into question due to their general heterodoxy and lack of reverence for the sacrament. Also, it would be very costly and time consuming to investigate validity case by case. I think that was the rationale.
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #1 on: July 15, 2023, 04:11:31 AM »
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  • I think I read somewhere that before VII, or at least right after Trent, it was customary to conditionally baptize all protestant converts. Is it true?

    NOTE: I know that anybody, even a raging heretic, can confer a valid baptism provided that he observes the matter and form and has the right intention. That's what the theory says, in practice, the Church could not trust the intention of protestant ministers and their observance of matter and form was always put into question due to their general heterodoxy and lack of reverence for the sacrament. Also, it would be very costly and time consuming to investigate validity case by case. I think that was the rationale.
    Not true.
    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the baptism which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church doth, is not true baptism; let him be anathema.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #2 on: July 15, 2023, 07:46:31 AM »
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  • Not true.
    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the baptism which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church doth, is not true baptism; let him be anathema.
    This does not answer my question.

    I don't affirm the position that is condemned by the Canon. What I'm saying is that in practice, since investigating for each individual case was difficult (witnesses would be other protestants, for example), ministers may not have the right intention, the Church asked to CONDITIONALLY baptize protestant converts.
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #3 on: July 15, 2023, 08:22:46 AM »
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  • Depended on group that performed the Baptism, as some more reliably performed valid Baptism than others.

    Offline God and Land

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #4 on: July 15, 2023, 08:28:52 AM »
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  • This is the reason why some groups only baptize adults.


    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #5 on: July 15, 2023, 11:20:04 AM »
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  • I think it was the practice to conditionally Baptize in most cases.  I think the "Lutherans" and the Anglicans/Episcopalians are the only ones who do/did it right. There may be another sect or two that did as well but I don't know any off the top of my head. 

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #6 on: July 15, 2023, 11:39:42 AM »
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  • This does not answer my question.

    I don't affirm the position that is condemned by the Canon. What I'm saying is that in practice, since investigating for each individual case was difficult (witnesses would be other protestants, for example), ministers may not have the right intention, the Church asked to CONDITIONALLY baptize protestant converts.
    I am pretty sure there never was any decree stating "all converts from "Y" must be re-baptized" or words to that effect.  I would think if there ever was such a decree it would say something along the lines of "all baptisms from those members of "Y" are invalid due to..." or otherwise worded after the example of  Apostolicae Curae, such as "On the Nullity of "Y" Baptisms."

     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #7 on: July 15, 2023, 04:11:22 PM »
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  • there is the possibility of New Order not baptizing.  NO may have the intention to initiate.  Ask what the purpose of Baptism is?  If Original Sin is not the intention, then there is your answer.


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #8 on: July 15, 2023, 04:54:21 PM »
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  • Pope Gregory II Invests Boniface with the Pallium (732): "Those whom you say were baptized by pagans and the case is proved should be baptized again in the name of the Trinity."

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #9 on: July 16, 2023, 01:05:29 AM »
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  • there is the possibility of New Order not baptizing.  NO may have the intention to initiate.  Ask what the purpose of Baptism is?  If Original Sin is not the intention, then there is your answer.
    I thought intention is fine as long at they intend to do as the Church does.

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #10 on: July 16, 2023, 03:56:37 AM »
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  • In the first edition of 'The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described' (1917) Dr Adrian Fortescue suggests conditional baptism of converts was very common, if not the norm:

    'The commonest case in England is that of converts doubtfully BAPTIZED. Such a convert makes his public profession of faith and abjures heresy. He is then baptized conditionally (the condition is expressed), privately with holy water (not baptism water). Then comes the absolution from excommunication. But if it seems more convenient, the private baptism may follow the absolution from censures. Then the convert mades his first confession.'

    When I was received, at a conservative NO parish in 1982, I was conditionally baptised, having gone through an Anglican baptism service where the minister did not pour water but made the Sign of the Cross on my forehead with it.  My understanding is the practice of conditional baptism was increasingly frowned on as modernism took hold as 'insulting' to non-Catholic communions and would be very rare now.


    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #11 on: July 16, 2023, 06:39:37 AM »
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  • In the first edition of 'The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described' (1917) Dr Adrian Fortescue suggests conditional baptism of converts was very common, if not the norm:

    'The commonest case in England is that of converts doubtfully BAPTIZED. Such a convert makes his public profession of faith and abjures heresy. He is then baptized conditionally (the condition is expressed), privately with holy water (not baptism water). Then comes the absolution from excommunication. But if it seems more convenient, the private baptism may follow the absolution from censures. Then the convert mades his first confession.'

    When I was received, at a conservative NO parish in 1982, I was conditionally baptised, having gone through an Anglican baptism service where the minister did not pour water but made the Sign of the Cross on my forehead with it.  My understanding is the practice of conditional baptism was increasingly frowned on as modernism took hold as 'insulting' to non-Catholic communions and would be very rare now.
    Thanks, Philip, I'll check out that book.
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Conditional baptism for protestants and VII?
    « Reply #12 on: July 16, 2023, 06:56:23 AM »
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