Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Matthew on February 01, 2012, 01:01:47 PM
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Let's form a comprehensive list of ALL the groups/personas/movements in the Sedevacantist world.
By "Sedevacantist" I mean all those who deny that the man Joseph Ratzinger is the current Pope. So this would include adherents of the Siri thesis, for example.
Say a person DID want to consider Sedevacantism. If we wanted to help him, and we were totally detached/honest and wanted to be thorough, who should this person be informed about (so he could pick his "flavor") or even be warned against?
I'll start the brainstorming session:
(In no particular order)
CMRI and its allies/affiliated groups (in Mexico, etc.)
SSPV
Fr. Moderator and his dubious priesthood -- slander, etc. on Traditio
Lucio Mascarenhas and all the extreme dogmatic Sedes in India
Richard Ibranyi
Anti-Popes (Michael I, etc.)
Followers of the Siri thesis
Feeneyites
Bp. Dolan/Fr. Cekada
Bishop Sanborn & Seminary
Fr. Ramolla & Seminary
Eamon Shea/SJB
VOVwatch
John Lane, St. Robert Bellarmine forum
Omlor family
Joseph Charles McKenzie, Rob Sheehan (allies of Dolan/Cekada)
Gerry Matatics
Hutton Gibson
The Four Marks newspaper
Dr. Tom Droleskey, Christ or Chaos website
Bp. Petko
Bp. McKenna
Ryan Scott
David Landry ("CM", "Catholic Martyr") & Frank Pagnanelli -- dogmatic Sede/home-aloners; they know of no other Catholics than their two families, though they don't deny others might exist.
Dogmatic Home-aloners (all priests, even Sede, are not valid for some reason)
Dimond Brothers/Most Holy Family Monastery
Apostles of Infinite Love (Canada)
The Daughters of Mary Mother of Our Savior
This is the second attempt -- the first thread dissolved in 5 directions.
I'm not interested in what you think of my little project.
Any posts that criticize my project, try to philosophize, or go off topic in any way will be deleted with no warning. So please stay ON-TOPIC. Thank you.
And to all the sedevacantists out there -- the goal of this project is NOT to point at the finished list and say, "Look at this! How ridiculous is sedevacantism!" I'm looking for *all* personas and groups -- both the good, and those which most Sedes wish would disappear. I'm looking for OBJECTIVE TRUTH AND REALITY here. The objective reality is that guys like the Dimond brothers exist, and are major players in the Sede world.
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Apostles of Infinite Love (in Canada)
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The Daughters of Mary Mother of Our Savior
Congregation of SSPV
an old SV community in Mexico, very long-lived (but of course the name escapes me)
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Mario Derksen, former author of Novus Ordo Watch and present author of a study on the Thuc line
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I would certainly want them to be able to receive the Sacraments. So I would tell them to look into groups that can give them these Sacraments.
I doubt I would recommend the Diamond Brothers, they can't offer the Sacraments in fact I heard they attend a Byzantine Rite.
Yes, I would recommend they subscribe to the Four Marks publication, and I would pass along some great web sites, CMRI web site for start.
http://www.cmri.org/ There they can read all about the sedevacantist position, and find some other great links for information.
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Lucio Mascarenhas and all the extreme dogmatic Sedes in India
I though that he was an antipope Michael follower and his "papal secretary."
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How kooky is the world of sedevacantism. All these different groups in disagreement with each other and forever squabbling. United only in their intense hatred of Vatican II and the post conciliar Popes. This is what happens when you sever ties with the Barque of Peter, you are bound to lose your mooring and falter.
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How kooky is the world of sedevacantism. All these different groups in disagreement with each other and forever squabbling. United only in their intense hatred of Vatican II and the post conciliar Popes. This is what happens when you sever ties with the Barque of Peter, you are bound to lose your mooring and falter.
All those who deny the Siri election have 'severed their ties to the Barque of Peter'. This includes deluded followers of the anti-pope Ben.
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How kooky is the world of sedevacantism. All these different groups in disagreement with each other and forever squabbling. United only in their intense hatred of Vatican II and the post conciliar Popes. This is what happens when you sever ties with the Barque of Peter, you are bound to lose your mooring and falter.
Always the same assessment. Always the same tidy reply:
How kooky is the world of Vatican II religion. All these different groups in disagreement with each other and forever squabbling. United only in their intense hatred of Tradition and the pre-Vatican II popes. This is what happens when you sever ties with the Barque of Peter, you are bound to lose your mooring and falter.
:argue:
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The truth is those who are not sedevacantist that are full of hatred, always speaking ill of THEIR HOLY FATHER!
In fact if you knew the truth the sedevacantist position, at least CMRI, hardly mentions B16 from the pulpit. Our priests are too busy with the mission of God, that is saving souls. The only time he or Vatican II gets mentioned might be during the October, Fatima Conference.
I will admit, Father mentioned a few weeks ago, the failings of Vatican II, and that was a surprise to our ears. The reason he did, I feel, is we have been encouraging the Spokane residents, to come and tour the Mount. Because of this many people from Spokane, from all walks of faith, have been asking many questions. There have been so many new faces at Mass, we even have a Protestant girl thinking of becoming a nun. She was told, she must become a Catholic first. LOL! Pray for her. Our Lady working miracles in secret, as she promised.
Getting back to my thoughts, here. You traditionalist, SSPX, accuse us of judging the pope, but is is actually the SSPX who judges their pope, and right in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Talk about rude! The reason I know this to be true is because when I travel, I have attended Mass at SSPX, why, because I believe you have the Blessed Sacrament on your altar.
Sedevacanist are not confused, we already admit what you know to be true.
Sure we might squabble, but so did St. Peter and St. Paul. Funny you close your eyes when Bishop Williamson and Bishop Fellay squabble, but hey, that's okay in your hypocritical eyes.
Maybe if we had a pope, we wouldn't squabble so much. What do you think?
Why do I have a feeling that cathinfo, are wishing that all sedevacantist leave this forum, think of how boring it would be for you, so boring sooner or later you would all leave.
Matthew, I am not hyjaking your thread here either, just replying to a few rude people.
roscoe, I don't deny Siri of anything, I just don't know for sure about what happened there, and what difference does it make, we would still be in these same shoes today.
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Funny you close your eyes when Bishop Williamson and Bishop Fellay squabble, but hey, that's okay in your hypocritical eyes.
I think you mean just Bishop Fellay. Bishop Williamson doesn't squabble.
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SS, I am sure you know much more than I do regarding them, I just base my opinion on what I read here.
Just to stay on topic, might we add your name, Spiritus to the "notorious" list.
How abour Raoul76
Party is Over
lets see who else?
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I'm sure you do tell the truth when you know it. I do question your omniscience, though. And what do you mean, RIP Dawn. She's alright isn't she?
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How kooky is the world of sedevacantism. All these different groups in disagreement with each other and forever squabbling. United only in their intense hatred of Vatican II and the post conciliar Popes. This is what happens when you sever ties with the Barque of Peter, you are bound to lose your mooring and falter.
All those who deny the Siri election have 'severed their ties to the Barque of Peter'. This includes deluded followers of the anti-pope Ben.
Anyone who still subscribes to the "Siri Thesis" after reading the article demolishing it by John Venarri is without hope.
In the words of Fleetwood Mac, "You can go your own wayyyyyy, go your own way."
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I'm sure you do tell the truth when you know it. I do question your omniscience, though. And what do you mean, RIP Dawn. She's alright isn't she?
Yeah shes alright. Just RIP as in banned... I believe that was the last status on her here.
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I'm sure you do tell the truth when you know it. I do question your omniscience, though. And what do you mean, RIP Dawn. She's alright isn't she?
Yeah shes alright. Just RIP as in banned... I believe that was the last status on her here.
No, she's not currently banned. She left on her own.
I actually saw her online about two months ago, but she hasn't posted since December 2010.
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How kooky is the world of sedevacantism. All these different groups in disagreement with each other and forever squabbling. United only in their intense hatred of Vatican II and the post conciliar Popes. This is what happens when you sever ties with the Barque of Peter, you are bound to lose your mooring and falter.
All those who deny the Siri election have 'severed their ties to the Barque of Peter'. This includes deluded followers of the anti-pope Ben.
Anyone who still subscribes to the "Siri Thesis" after reading the article demolishing it by John Venarri is without hope.
In the words of Fleetwood Mac, "You can go your own wayyyyyy, go your own way."
John Vennari and his pal Mrs Engel have been discussed here b4. They are in the business of trashing Card's Rampolla and Raphael. His pal Mr Hiembichner also gets his kicks that way. I do not trust him at all re: the Siri election.
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Saint Jude's Shrine, The Cordi-Marian Fathers.
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Matthew, I am not hyjaking your thread here either, just replying to a few rude people.
You were really just replying to one rude comment, right? I agree it was rude, but you should have probably responded to that one individual directly so as not to spread even more angst.
I'd like to hear more about some of these groups. Not the colorful characters, just the normal Catholics.
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This looks like a rock solid group. I am not sure who any of these bishops are though...
http://www.shrineofsaintjude.net/homepage.html
I say ROck solid because there is no Crisis teaching or mention of sedevacantism that I could find.
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I'm sure you do tell the truth when you know it. I do question your omniscience, though. And what do you mean, RIP Dawn. She's alright isn't she?
Yeah shes alright. Just RIP as in banned... I believe that was the last status on her here.
No, she's not currently banned. She left on her own.
I actually saw her online about two months ago, but she hasn't posted since December 2010.
Thanks for clarification. I retract my prior posts.
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Why do I have a feeling that cathinfo, are wishing that all sedevacantist leave this forum, think of how boring it would be for you, so boring sooner or later you would all leave.
I think this pretty much sums it up. If all the sedevacantists left CathInfo it would become...Angelqueen.
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Angels and ministers of grace preserve us. :smile:
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Fr. Moderator and his dubious priesthood -- slander, etc. on Traditio
Father Moderator (Father Morrison) is a true Priest who is NOT SV.
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TKGS said:
I think this pretty much sums it up. If all the sedevacantists left CathInfo it would become...Angelqueen.
Except less funny.
I wonder how much more Matthew will bear though. For a while he was AWOL, I thought maybe he was becoming sede secretly. But then he came back and showed an almost defiant SSPX-y second wind. Hard decisions for Matthew, because without sedes this site will croak, but I wonder how much more he can stand. I feel, for some reason, that the sede position almost got its hooks in him, and he talked himself out of it, that is why he's now going into more full-on aggressive denial.
I think Matthew would have had to at least been slightly sympathetic to sedevacantism the whole time, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to endure the merciless pounding that SSPX sometimes receives here.
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For a while he was AWOL, I thought maybe he was becoming sede secretly. But then he came back and showed an almost defiant SSPX-y second wind.
Matthew has a family for whom to provide, entailing hours of work: he's a busy man, that's all. The scarcity of his posts did not necessarily mean that he has been convinced of anything that the sedevacantists have presented here or elsewhere, especially since he has entertained his convictions all his life, and they have not changed after decades of adult life as a traditionalist and after Seminary education and extensive exchanges with educated clergy and laity. I doubt internet posts alone would sway him.
I think Matthew would have had to at least been slightly sympathetic to sedevacantism the whole time, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to endure the merciless pounding that SSPX sometimes receives here.
Indeed, he is not sympathetic to the notion of sedevacantism, rather, he sympathizes with Catholics of the sedevacantist persuasion who endeavor to practice and profess the holy faith, eschewing extremism and fanaticism (such as that of he Dimond Brothers and the various hooligans he has permanently banned in the past) and who try to contribute good things to the forum discussions.
Strictly speaking, if he at some point in the future decides to get rid of the sedevacantists, that is his business because this is his forum after all. I would understand.
I just hope some non-sedevacantist has Cardinal Schuster's The Sacramentary (Liber Sacramentorum): Historical and Liturgical Notes on the Roman Missal or the Byzantine Missal, so that the forum members can still read the pages therefrom...
:thinking:
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To get back to the subject of the original post:
Matthew, this forum itself has all you need to construct an epitome of the "sedevacantist world," especially since the posts docuмent the various intellectual and spiritual developments that have taken place in the case of individuals and with all the news regarding the organizations and personalities at large in the "sedevacantist world."
It's all here. One just needs to put it together and make a chart, or graph, or something, perhaps using algorithms and statistics, etc.
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For a while he was AWOL, I thought maybe he was becoming sede secretly. But then he came back and showed an almost defiant SSPX-y second wind.
Matthew has a family for whom to provide, entailing hours of work: he's a busy man, that's all. The scarcity of his posts did not necessarily mean that he has been convinced of anything that the sedevacantists have presented here or elsewhere, especially since he has entertained his convictions all his life, and they have not changed after decades of adult life as a traditionalist and after Seminary education and extensive exchanges with educated clergy and laity. I doubt internet posts alone would sway him.
I think Matthew would have had to at least been slightly sympathetic to sedevacantism the whole time, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to endure the merciless pounding that SSPX sometimes receives here.
Indeed, he is not sympathetic to the notion of sedevacantism, rather, he sympathizes with Catholics of the sedevacantist persuasion who endeavor to practice and profess the holy faith, eschewing extremism and fanaticism (such as that of he Dimond Brothers and the various hooligans he has permanently banned in the past) and who try to contribute good things to the forum discussions.
Thanks, Hobble!
I was about to take the time to respond to Raoul's nonsense, but you said it better than I would have.
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Why do I have a feeling that cathinfo, are wishing that all sedevacantist leave this forum, think of how boring it would be for you, so boring sooner or later you would all leave.
I think this pretty much sums it up. If all the sedevacantists left CathInfo it would become...Angelqueen.
Yeah, I'm sure -- only for that to happen, I'd have to become John Grasmeier, which isn't likely to happen anytime soon... call me crazy...
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Fr. Moderator and his dubious priesthood -- slander, etc. on Traditio
Father Moderator (Father Morrison) is a true Priest who is NOT SV.
I know he has said in the past that he is no a dede, but he certainly sounds like one. He says that the VC II rites are invalid. Since Benedict XVI was consecrated in the new rite, if it is not valid then he is not a bishop and so can't be the bishop of Rome.
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The chart was really fascinating and very helpful.
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Fr. Moderator and his dubious priesthood -- slander, etc. on Traditio
Father Moderator (Father Morrison) is a true Priest who is NOT SV.
I know he has said in the past that he is no a dede, but he certainly sounds like one. He says that the VC II rites are invalid. Since Benedict XVI was consecrated in the new rite, if it is not valid then he is not a bishop and so can't be the bishop of Rome.
That is the inconsistency of the recognize and resisters. The call the Novus Ordo "The New Church" and know that Ratzinger is the head of it, yet they also call Ratzinger their Pope.
That position is maddening when you think about it.
But the SSPX have threatened people with Hell for taking that position. That is enough the steer you away from even considering SV.
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How kooky is the world of sedevacantism. All these different groups in disagreement with each other and forever squabbling. United only in their intense hatred of Vatican II and the post conciliar Popes. This is what happens when you sever ties with the Barque of Peter, you are bound to lose your mooring and falter.
All those who deny the Siri election have 'severed their ties to the Barque of Peter'. This includes deluded followers of the anti-pope Ben.
Anyone who still subscribes to the "Siri Thesis" after reading the article demolishing it by John Venarri is without hope.
In the words of Fleetwood Mac, "You can go your own wayyyyyy, go your own way."
John Vennari and his pal Mrs Engel have been discussed here b4. They are in the business of trashing Card's Rampolla and Raphael. His pal Mr Hiembichner also gets his kicks that way. I do not trust him at all re: the Siri election.
Irrelevant.
When you have arguments that trump his, please post them
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This has all been discussed b4 and I do not trust J Vennari. If U do then be my guest.
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TKGS said:
I think this pretty much sums it up. If all the sedevacantists left CathInfo it would become...Angelqueen.
Except less funny.
I wonder how much more Matthew will bear though. For a while he was AWOL, I thought maybe he was becoming sede secretly. But then he came back and showed an almost defiant SSPX-y second wind. Hard decisions for Matthew, because without sedes this site will croak, but I wonder how much more he can stand. I feel, for some reason, that the sede position almost got its hooks in him, and he talked himself out of it, that is why he's now going into more full-on aggressive denial.
I think Matthew would have had to at least been slightly sympathetic to sedevacantism the whole time, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to endure the merciless pounding that SSPX sometimes receives here.
Disagree.
Grassmier seemed to have very thin skin, and banned all opinions which were not his own.
Matthew, on the other hand, allows all opinions that are well argued.
Big difference.
If the sedes were banned, there would still be the Feenyites, the odd indultarian, etc.
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TKGS said:
I think this pretty much sums it up. If all the sedevacantists left CathInfo it would become...Angelqueen.
Except less funny.
I wonder how much more Matthew will bear though. For a while he was AWOL, I thought maybe he was becoming sede secretly. But then he came back and showed an almost defiant SSPX-y second wind. Hard decisions for Matthew, because without sedes this site will croak, but I wonder how much more he can stand. I feel, for some reason, that the sede position almost got its hooks in him, and he talked himself out of it, that is why he's now going into more full-on aggressive denial.
I think Matthew would have had to at least been slightly sympathetic to sedevacantism the whole time, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to endure the merciless pounding that SSPX sometimes receives here.
Disagree.
Grassmier seemed to have very thin skin, and banned all opinions which were not his own.
Matthew, on the other hand, allows all opinions that are well argued.
Big difference.
If the sedes were banned, there would still be the Feenyites, the odd indultarian, etc.
Btw, I would not support the banning of sedes.
It would look like we were trying to rid ourselves of an opponent we could not defeat by argumentation, thereby reinforcing belief in erroneous theses.
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And what do you mean, RIP Dawn. She's alright isn't she?
Trinity,
Dawn no longer comes to the forum after her spiritual adviser told her not to.
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TKGS said:
I think this pretty much sums it up. If all the sedevacantists left CathInfo it would become...Angelqueen.
Except less funny.
I wonder how much more Matthew will bear though. For a while he was AWOL, I thought maybe he was becoming sede secretly. But then he came back and showed an almost defiant SSPX-y second wind. Hard decisions for Matthew, because without sedes this site will croak, but I wonder how much more he can stand. I feel, for some reason, that the sede position almost got its hooks in him, and he talked himself out of it, that is why he's now going into more full-on aggressive denial.
I think Matthew would have had to at least been slightly sympathetic to sedevacantism the whole time, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to endure the merciless pounding that SSPX sometimes receives here.
Disagree.
Grassmier seemed to have very thin skin, and banned all opinions which were not his own.
Matthew, on the other hand, allows all opinions that are well argued.
Big difference.
If the sedes were banned, there would still be the Feenyites, the odd indultarian, etc.
What is a 'Feenyite'?
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Lucio Mascarenhas and all the extreme dogmatic Sedes in India ]
My information is that while this man does not accept Benedict XVI as Pope, he has a pope of his own somewhere. Not a true sedevacantist. Interestingly enough, I was given to understand that Lucio was pointed to paths he subsequently followed, by an SSPXer who wanted to monopolize the attention of the SSPX priest then on duty.
Furthermore, it appears that there are virtually no sedes in India, priests or laypeople, of any variety, be it extremist, dogmatic or whatever
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Errroneous theses? I won't argue that. I would just love to know what the SSPX thesis is. I realize now that what I've thought all these years is probably too simplistic, but in all these years I don't believe I've ever seen what makes an SSPXer. Would someone please enlighten me?
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Or will you wish to remain silent and claim to be the victor?
Where is the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church?
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I realize now that what I've thought all these years is probably too simplistic...
Where is the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church?
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Errroneous theses? I won't argue that. I would just love to know what the SSPX thesis is. I realize now that what I've thought all these years is probably too simplistic, but in all these years I don't believe I've ever seen what makes an SSPXer. Would someone please enlighten me?
Put simply the SSPX thesis is the Bad Dad Thesis. The Pope is like a bad dad. We can disobey him but he is still our Dad ....... Critics say that it is schismatic for a Catholic to disobey the Pope, and Heresy to say that you can actually disobey the one you consider to be the Pope.
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Thanks, Francisco. I'm afraid if I had a bad dad of any sort I would disown him.
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So what is the argument for not ditching him?
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So what is the argument for not ditching him?
Really? My IRL Dad isn't Catholic. You think it's a given that I shouldn't speak to him?
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No, no. It would be a given in my book if he was detrimental to your health. Is that the argument for not ditching the pope?
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No, no. It would be a given in my book if he was detrimental to your health. Is that the argument for not ditching the pope?
Well, I can probably think up many ways in which my father is more detrimental to my well-being than the Pope is. :smirk:
I'd recommend if you'd like an accurate answer, you don't bother with what anyone here has to say about it and just look at sspx.org.
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I'm afraid if I had a bad dad of any sort I would disown him.
So what is the argument for not ditching him?
Really? My IRL Dad isn't Catholic. You think it's a given that I shouldn't speak to him?
The fourth commandment requires you don't "ditch him."
Even if parents do not lead a virtuous life, they still have a claim upon the respect of their children, because of the position they hold in regard to them as God's representatives. The Wise Man says : "Honor thy father in word and work and in all patience"; (Ecclus. iii. 9).
The "bad dad" argument is flawed, yet Trinity, not really understanding that, goes on to disparage the 4th Commandment, albeit indirectly. Another reason why some just can't seem to stomach sedevacantists.
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I had to go away and think about this for a bit, Mater. I suppose it would be according to the perceived threat. If he was going tohurt your feelings one could man up and endure that. But if everytime he saw you he pulled out a gun and tried to shoot you, what fool would go near him? Which is why I asked the question, are these mere papal sins, or are we into something more sinister?
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Btw, I would not support the banning of sedes.
It would look like we were trying to rid ourselves of an opponent we could not defeat by argumentation, thereby reinforcing belief in erroneous theses.
The curious (and untraditional) thing is, the sedes are kept on, and then attempt is made to defeat them more by SILENCE than anything else; not engaging them point-for-point on what is thought to be erroneous.
So, Seraphim, would you like to go point-for-point with me on the principles behind the sede position? Or will you wish to remain silent and claim to be the victor?
Let's start with the fact that Archbishop Lefebvre himself believed in the principles and even believed in the principle that one could finally be convinced a Novus Ordo papal claimaint was false and act upon it:
"it is possible we may be obliged to believe he is not pope....I am on the way to saying the Pope is not Pope"
Abp. Marcel Lefebvre, The Angelus, 1986
Pretty selective quoting there.
Just as sedes are able to take a single sentence from a manual and deduce from it the desired conclusion, so too with quoting ABL.
Apparently it never occurs to you that there are hundreds of ABL quotes acknowledging the post V2 popes (just as it never occurs to you that there are doctrines surrounding the ones you quote and parce to reach your sede conclusions, like a Feenyite fixated on John 3:5).
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Errroneous theses? I won't argue that. I would just love to know what the SSPX thesis is. I realize now that what I've thought all these years is probably too simplistic, but in all these years I don't believe I've ever seen what makes an SSPXer. Would someone please enlighten me?
Sure.
Please refer to the article in this forum's library titled, "on the Doctrine of Necessity."
Let me know if you have any more questions.
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I'm sorry Seraphim I can't find it. I do want to thank everyone for helping me with this. Unless I'm mistaken the crux of the problem is the way we view the conciliar popes. But the problem I can't figure out at all is having someone of another faith (modernism) as your spiritual leader. How does one do that?
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I'm sorry Seraphim I can't find it. I do want to thank everyone for helping me with this. Unless I'm mistaken the crux of the problem is the way we view the conciliar popes. But the problem I can't figure out at all is having someone of another faith (modernism) as your spiritual leader. How does one do that?
The problem is more like the way some sedevacantists view the entire Church hierarchy, that is practically non-existent. That is a huge problem for many and they can reconcile it with Catholic teaching the same way you can't reconcile a sitting heretical "pope" with Catholic teaching.
The vacant see in the sense of the pope who by virtue of heresy ceases to be pope, was considered by the the theologians in the context of a Church which is normally Catholic. But today the problem – mysterious and apocalyptic – is different. Along with the “pope”, it is the orbis catholicus which no longer professes the Catholic faith, the body of bishops who are no longer Catholic, the faithful – even those who are in good faith – who are no longer Catholics. Ought we not therefore to understand that the problem today is therefore greater than that of the heretical pope?
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Fr. Moderator and his dubious priesthood -- slander, etc. on Traditio
Father Moderator (Father Morrison) is a true Priest who is NOT SV.
I know he has said in the past that he is no a dede, but he certainly sounds like one. He says that the VC II rites are invalid. Since Benedict XVI was consecrated in the new rite, if it is not valid then he is not a bishop and so can't be the bishop of Rome.
That is the inconsistency of the recognize and resisters. The call the Novus Ordo "The New Church" and know that Ratzinger is the head of it, yet they also call Ratzinger their Pope.
That position is maddening when you think about it.
But the SSPX have threatened people with Hell for taking that position. That is enough the steer you away from even considering SV.
Well, I guess that depends on how seriously you t the treat of Hell from people with no jurisdiction.
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That position is maddening when you think about it.
Amen. I've been going crazy wondering how it is even possible. There has to be some serious slight of mind going on.
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Serephim I found it. Originally I did a search and got nothing. Today I had more time so I scrolled through the library. It's still mind boggling. They have made their pope into a puppet---declaring themselves the limits of his power. I have no doubt they are doing their best in an impossible situation; trying to be just a little bit pregnant or a little bit dead. No wonder I have not understood them.
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One group to avoid consists of the folks who followed Schuckardt after he got kicked off the Mount. That poor deluded bunch is now being led by Schuckardt's successors, Andrew Jacobs (Bishop Mary Fidelis) and Joseph Belzak (Bishop Joseph Marie). I can honestly say Andrew Jacobs is the meanest person I ever has the misfortune to meet. The last I heard, the group was trawling for followers in Ecuador by claiming Schuckardt fulfilled some of the prophecies of Mother Mariana, but they weren't having much success. :rolleyes:
Their current websites are:
http://www.marienfried.com/
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-091.html
They are a Schuckardt personality cult and probably aren't even Catholic if you judge by their theology. For one thing, Schuckardt claimed jurisdiction over the entire North American continent. Schuckardt's episcopal spawn still claim this jurisdiction even though Catholics have traditionally taught that jurisdiction comes from the Pope alone. There's no epikeia for jurisdiction.
They claimed Schuckardt was the only valid, licit Catholic bishop left in the world "that we know of" and led listeners to believe he therefore had to be pope by default.
They taught all kinds of crap, such as believing that Schuckardt was mystically crowned Pope Hadrian VII by Our Lady in the Cathedral of St. Mary Major in Rome during a cult pilgrimage. :king: :smirk:
They required people to walk backwards in chapel to avoid turning their back on Christ. They pressured women to wear skirts and keep their heads covered in public, not just during Mass. And they told me the bishop frowned on women wearing pajamas at night even if they lived alone!
A few years ago it became obvious that their friary cuм boy's school was rife with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ child molestation. Belzak's nephew even admitted in court to molesting a minor. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree in that respect because Schuckardt was notorious for pressuring seminarians into engaging in mutual masturbation with him. Shuckardt was also a drug addict, control freak, and shopaholic who neglected his episcopal duties but laid all kinds of preposterous burdens on the laity. I hope the devil himself is repeatedly shoving a pitchfork up his butt in hell. :devil2: :farmer:
The group's clergy, religious, and laity are a bunch of deceived fanatics, and they're uncharitable and mean as all get out. They are a travesty of Traditional Catholicism. Avoid them like the bubonic plague; your soul may depend on it.
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I've read a bit about the so-called "Palmarian Catholic Church" (Seville, Spain), and was surprised to find out that they're already, now, on their 3rd "pope", as of July of last year. I didn't realize that number two ("Pope Peter II") had died. He was succeeded by a man now calling himself "Pope Gregory XVIII".
This one of them all really amazes me the most. It's such an unpleasant community to belong to, from everything that I've read, and their "liturgy" has been reduced to merely the recitation of the words of consecration (because none of them knows how to celebrate Mass anymore, evidently). They don't even have the "visions" that they started out with any more. All that's left is a weird ecclesiastical pageant in which their prelates walk around with their "pope" at their basilica in endless processions in order to be adored by their followers.
I can't imagine why anyone would find that appealing, much less authentically Christian. I mean I know there are oddballs out there who get off on dressing up and prancing about in ecclesiastical finery, and for persons with that sort of a fetish, I'm sure the Palmarian Church must be like Disneyland. But for lay followers? The fact that they have laity I really just don't get.
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If you're still adding to your list:
Mel Gibson (How'd we miss him??)
Kathleen Plumb (altho her newspaper is listed - The 4 Marks)
Stephen Heiner is now a sede. He has True Restoration
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...
an old SV community in Mexico, very long-lived (but of course the name escapes me)
Elizabeth, the group is called La Sociedad Sacerdotal Trento.
This is their website:
http://www.sociedadtrento.org.mx/
They are, after the CMRI, the largest group of Sedevacantist Priests that I can recommend.
I think that they may have over twenty priests.
They list thirteen churches on their website.
They are governed by Bishop Martin Davila Gandara, who was consecrated by Bishop Mark Pivarunas.
Bishop Pivarunas was himself consecrated by Bishop Carmona, who was one of the four clergy mainly responsible
for what later became La Sociedad Sacerdotal Trento.
They are quite simply one of the most important groups in Sedevacantism.
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So what is the argument for not ditching him?
Really? My IRL Dad isn't Catholic. You think it's a given that I shouldn't speak to him?
Dear Mater,
Of course you should speak to your Father.
Show him how much you love him by being full of love towards him.
Perhaps that will help him to see the goodness that Catholicism has done the soul of his Catholic daughter.
Also, it would be a good idea to put a prayer request about your Father in the Prayers section of CathInfo.
God Bless you, Mater.
Yours, in Jesus and Mary and Joseph,
Sede Catholic.
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Not that it appears to matter, but I've repeatedly stated on this very site that I am not a sedevacantist, strictly so-called. Why did I even get mentioned? I am just a man trying to navigate the presently-rough waters, just like Matthew, et alii...
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The CMRI have one Bishop, Bishop Mark Pivarunas, and 32 priests.
The CMRI also have a large number of Brothers and Nuns.
The CMRI provide the Sacraments for traditional Catholics in many countries throughout the world
The CMRI are the most significant of the Sedevacantist groups of clergy.
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Good day,
I am from South Africa, and understand that Bishop Richard Bedingfeld, who hails from the northeastern part of the country and worked among Zulu-speaking blacks, is a sedevacantist - well, he is, as he is reflected on that helpful graph posted earlier in the thread.
Can anyone tell me where he is now and with whom he is affiliated?
Many thanks.
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Good day,
I am from South Africa, and understand that Bishop Richard Bedingfeld, who hails from the northeastern part of the country and worked among Zulu-speaking blacks, is a sedevacantist - well, he is, as he is reflected on that helpful graph posted earlier in the thread.
Can anyone tell me where he is now and with whom he is affiliated?
Many thanks.
Is he still alive? I heard he had died.
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Good day,
I am from South Africa, and understand that Bishop Richard Bedingfeld, who hails from the northeastern part of the country and worked among Zulu-speaking blacks, is a sedevacantist - well, he is, as he is reflected on that helpful graph posted earlier in the thread.
Can anyone tell me where he is now and with whom he is affiliated?
Many thanks.
Since the 90's he has adhered to a false papal claimant, Victor Von Pentz (Linus II) in England. He is obviously not a sedevacantist.
Stay away!
What is a ' sedevacantist'? :confused1:
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Good day,
I am from South Africa, and understand that Bishop Richard Bedingfeld, who hails from the northeastern part of the country and worked among Zulu-speaking blacks, is a sedevacantist - well, he is, as he is reflected on that helpful graph posted earlier in the thread.
Can anyone tell me where he is now and with whom he is affiliated?
Many thanks.
Since the 90's he has adhered to a false papal claimant, Victor Von Pentz (Linus II) in England. He is obviously not a sedevacantist.
Stay away!
What is a ' sedevacantist'? :confused1:
A person whose existence has never been proven with any evidence from the Bible, a Pope, Church Council, Father, Doctor, Saint, historian, INQ, Bps Pastoral Letter, nor Catholic Encyclopedia or Dictionary.
I read that somewhere. :geezer:
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Orthopapism
http://www.geocities.ws/prakashjm45/orthopapism.html
What is Orthopapism?
With the Great Schism engineered by the Roman Modernist wing of Liberal Protestant heretics, under the auspices of Angelus Joseph Roncalli, there gradually arose various groups in opposition and to defend, preserve and ensure the perpetuation of the True Church. These groups together comprise the Catholic Resistance. The Resistance can be grouped into n broad schools of thought — Cassicanists, Sede-Vacantists, Orthopapists; excluding those who strayed into heresy or who compromised with the Roncallite Antichurch.
The Cassiciacanist follow the Cassiciacuм Thesis of Guerard des Lauriers. Also called "Sede-privationists" and "Guerardists". Rt. Rev. Fidelis McKenna, The Instute Mater Bonii Consilii in Italy, Belgium, etc. Also, in a peculiar manner, J. Lawrence Case.
The Sede-Vacantists following the constant teaching of the Church as incorporated in numerous Magisterial docuмents, believe that
a manifest and public heretic, as opposed to an occult or hidden heretic, cannot become a pope or, for that matter, truly acquire any position in the Church, unless he has been reconciled before his election, etc.; and
any and every Christian, of whatever rank and position, not excluding the Pope, if he became a public and manifest heretic, would thereby automatically, and without any declaration, lose office.
Therefore, since Roncalli and his followers who 'succeeded' him, John Baptist Montini, Albian Luciani and Charles Voltiva, were either never legitimately popes, or if they had been elected lawfully, lost it by becoming heretics.
Researchers — Fr. in Italy, and Benns & Bawden in their book, have effectively exposed Roncalli to have been a public and manifest heretic from before his purported election, thereby nullifying it. And since his 'sucessors' were adherents of his heresies, they also never did become legitimately pope.
Orthopapism is a name that I have made. I use it to define the position of those who go beyond the mere and bland declaration of the Sedevacantists that the so-called popes presently occuping the Vatican are non-popes, to affirm the need of electing a true pope, or to find out if this has been already achieved, and if achieved, to submit themselves to this lawful pope.
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Who is Charles Voltiva? :confused1:
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It's an alternate spelling:
May 1984, the Antipope and heresiarch Charles Voltiva (Karol Wojtyla, aka 'John-Paul 2') presided at a service in Papua New Guinea,
--http://www.geocities.ws/prakashjm45/pornomass.html
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Let's form a comprehensive list of ALL the groups/personas/movements in the Sedevacantist world.
By "Sedevacantist" I mean all those who deny that the man Joseph Ratzinger is the current Pope. So this would include adherents of the Siri thesis, for example.
Say a person DID want to consider Sedevacantism. If we wanted to help him, and we were totally detached/honest and wanted to be thorough, who should this person be informed about (so he could pick his "flavor") or even be warned against?
I'll start the brainstorming session:
(In no particular order)
CMRI and its allies/affiliated groups (in Mexico, etc.)
SSPV
Fr. Moderator and his dubious priesthood -- slander, etc. on Traditio
Lucio Mascarenhas and all the extreme dogmatic Sedes in India
Richard Ibranyi
David Hobson
Anti-Popes (Michael I, etc.)
Followers of the Siri thesis
Feeneyites
Bp. Dolan/Fr. Cekada
Bishop Sanborn & Seminary
Fr. Ramolla & Seminary
Eamon Shea/SJB
VOVwatch
John Lane, St. Robert Bellarmine forum
Omlor family
Joseph Charles McKenzie, Rob Sheehan (allies of Dolan/Cekada)
Gerry Matatics
Hutton Gibson
The Four Marks newspaper
Dr. Tom Droleskey, Christ or Chaos website
Bp. Petko
Bp. McKenna
Ryan Scott
David Landry ("CM", "Catholic Martyr") & Frank Pagnanelli -- dogmatic Sede/home-aloners; they know of no other Catholics than their two families, though they don't deny others might exist.
Dogmatic Home-aloners (all priests, even Sede, are not valid for some reason)
Dimond Brothers/Most Holy Family Monastery
Apostles of Infinite Love (Canada)
The Daughters of Mary Mother of Our Savior
This is the second attempt -- the first thread dissolved in 5 directions.
I'm not interested in what you think of my little project.
Any posts that criticize my project, try to philosophize, or go off topic in any way will be deleted with no warning. So please stay ON-TOPIC. Thank you.
And to all the sedevacantists out there -- the goal of this project is NOT to point at the finished list and say, "Look at this! How ridiculous is sedevacantism!" I'm looking for *all* personas and groups -- both the good, and those which most Sedes wish would disappear. I'm looking for OBJECTIVE TRUTH AND REALITY here. The objective reality is that guys like the Dimond brothers exist, and are major players in the Sede world.
I've looked through the whole thread and can't find any mention of these
"Feeneyites" so I must expect that this name was on the list from the start.
I apologize for not having read this thread earlier, but I just now found it.
Who would this name refer to? All the followers of Fr. Leonard Feeney that I am
aware of (there are several divergent groups) acknowledge the Pope, pray for
the Pope and the local bishop, and have his picture hanging on the wall in the back
of their chapels.
So how exactly do they (if they are who you mean) make this sedevacantist list?
Incidentally, the same could be said of glaudius_veritatis, who questioned his
name (Eamon) here and I don't see any reply or change since his question.
One more thing: I am aware of a "Bishop Sebastian" who has a chapel in
Northridge, CA, who is sedevacantist. Canon Gregory Hesse (who was not a
sedevacantist) gave a lecture at his chapel about 9 years ago, as I recall, shortly
before he died.
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Yeah the Feeneyite inclusion is a mistake.