Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Conspiracy_Factist on January 15, 2014, 07:20:35 PM
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Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo
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Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo
Attending anything involving an NO "mass" makes one complicit to sacrilege. It's either mimicking something sacred or it's being irreverent to something sacred--it's sacrilege either way.
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Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo
Attending anything involving an NO "mass" makes one complicit to sacrilege. It's either mimicking something sacred or it's being irreverent to something sacred--it's sacrilege either way.
I agree, how about attending the wake, what guidelines do you use, for example someone who didn't lead a very catholic life dies, your friend is the brother, do you go? basically all of my friends don't lead a very catholic life, their parents die, should I go to the wake ..all of them are novus ordo
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I'm no authority, but it would seem to me that stopping by during visitation to pay condolences would be ok in most instances. I am not sure that I have ever attended a true wake. What I have attended is the Rosary the evening before the funeral. It seems to me that, too, would be ok in most instances. I haven't ever seen anything out of line. But both sides of my family is fairly conservative in NO in parishes that are middle of the road to conservative.
I am not sure what I would do if the luminous mysteries were going to be the focus. If it was very close family, I would insist on the traditional mysteries. Otherwise, not sure whether I would mentally meditate on the traditional or not attend at all. Also, I would be very protective to not expose children to such things as the luminous mysteries and all dogs go to Heaven mentality.
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
this is debateable..what about this
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
2
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
this is debateable..what about this
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
2
What about it? Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services.. They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
this is debateable..what about this
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
2
What about it? Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services.. They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.
what's the difference in your mind between
assist actively
or
to have a part in the sacred rites
what would consist precisely of" have a part in sacred rites?"
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
this is debateable..what about this
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
2
What about it? Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services.. They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.
what's the difference in your mind between
assist actively
or
to have a part in the sacred rites
what would consist precisely of" have a part in sacred rites?"
Attend but don't drink the grape juice. :laugh1:
Passive attendance of a major life event death, marriage should be fine, but with limitations, especially on the marriage part.
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
this is debateable..what about this
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
2
What about it? Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services.. They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.
what's the difference in your mind between
assist actively
or
to have a part in the sacred rites
what would consist precisely of" have a part in sacred rites?"
Attend but don't drink the grape juice. :laugh1:
Passive attendance of a major life event death, marriage should be fine, but with limitations, especially on the marriage part.
Canon 1258.1, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “It is
not licit for the faithful by any manner to
assist actively or to have a part in the sacred rites of non-Catholics.
passive attendance to a Jєωιѕн funeral is fine with you? Jєωιѕн marriage is fine with you?
the Jєω, greek orthodox , novus order marriage or funeral are all fine with you or do you make distictions between them?
I'm not sure what the canon really means by "to have a part"
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Gooch, here are the canonists Bouscaren and Ellis on the canon in question:
"It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).
1. Active Participation. A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reaosn, for example mere civility or friendship. All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.
2. Passive Presence. The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence." A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action. It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material. Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circuмstances or consequences. Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal. The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations." Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology (Bouscaren and Ellis, 1946, pp 639-640 emphasis added)."
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Gooch, here are the canonists Bouscaren and Ellis on the canon in question:
"It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).
1. Active Participation. A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reaosn, for example mere civility or friendship. All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.
2. Passive Presence. The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence." A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action. It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material. Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circuмstances or consequences. Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal. The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations." Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology (Bouscaren and Ellis, 1946, pp 639-640 emphasis added)."
thanks
example
your parent dies, novus order, you go to wake, forget about the funeral?..wait outside? stay in the back of the church? do you make any distinctions between a Jєωιѕн friend's wake and a novus order?
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
this is debateable..what about this
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
2
What about it? Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services.. They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.
how can you be 100% sure when Pope Pius XI says "take part" that it doesn't include passive attendance...for example there's an assembly of Jєωs at some circuмcision ceremony, you go..aren't you taking part in it by simply attending? I think you would be taking a chance by merely attending ...but the other quote you gave seems to contradict this one.
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Gooch, here are the canonists Bouscaren and Ellis on the canon in question:
"It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).
1. Active Participation. A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reaosn, for example mere civility or friendship. All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.
2. Passive Presence. The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence." A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action. It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material. Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circuмstances or consequences. Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal. The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations." Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology (Bouscaren and Ellis, 1946, pp 639-640 emphasis added)."
thanks
example
your parent dies, novus order, you go to wake, forget about the funeral?..wait outside? stay in the back of the church? do you make any distinctions between a Jєωιѕн friend's wake and a novus order?
I don't see why a person would be obliged to not attend their parent's funeral.
The canon doesn't distinguish between different types of non-Catholic events. The Novus Ordo is treated the same way as any other non-Catholic event. A grave reason can justify passive attendance.
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
this is debateable..what about this
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
2
What about it? Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services.. They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.
how can you be 100% sure when Pope Pius XI says "take part" that it doesn't include passive attendance...for example there's an assembly of Jєωs at some circuмcision ceremony, you go..aren't you taking part in it by simply attending? I think you would be taking a chance by merely attending ...but the other quote you gave seems to contradict this one.
We can be certain because the Church's own law, which is protected from approving error, says that circuмstance can allow passive attendance.
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Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo
Attending anything involving an NO "mass" makes one complicit to sacrilege. It's either mimicking something sacred or it's being irreverent to something sacred--it's sacrilege either way.
I agree, how about attending the wake, what guidelines do you use, for example someone who didn't lead a very catholic life dies, your friend is the brother, do you go? basically all of my friends don't lead a very catholic life, their parents die, should I go to the wake ..all of them are novus ordo
There's nothing wrong going to the "wake," the Catholic way to say it, though is to call it the "viewing of the body." There's a grand difference between going to the viewing of the body, than going to the funeral. Out of respect, going to the viewing is appropriate, but abstaining from attending a protestant or novus ordo funeral would be the right thing to do. Stay away from those.
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The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
*
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Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo
Attending anything involving an NO "mass" makes one complicit to sacrilege. It's either mimicking something sacred or it's being irreverent to something sacred--it's sacrilege either way.
I agree, how about attending the wake, what guidelines do you use, for example someone who didn't lead a very catholic life dies, your friend is the brother, do you go? basically all of my friends don't lead a very catholic life, their parents die, should I go to the wake ..all of them are novus ordo
There's nothing wrong going to the "wake," the Catholic way to say it, though is to call it the "viewing of the body." There's a grand difference between going to the viewing of the body, than going to the funeral. Out of respect, going to the viewing is appropriate, but abstaining from attending a protestant or novus ordo funeral would be the right thing to do. Stay away from those.
I agree, do you distinguish between a novus order, greek orthodox and Jєωιѕн wake, as of now I would attend the novus order, definitely not the Jєωιѕн.... the greek orthodox has me stumped, I have a sister in law who's greek orthodox so that's why I want to make sure
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how can you be 100% sure when Pope Pius XI says "take part" that it doesn't include passive attendance...for example there's an assembly of Jєωs at some circuмcision ceremony, you go..aren't you taking part in it by simply attending? I think you would be taking a chance by merely attending ...but the other quote you gave seems to contradict this one.
We can be certain because the Church's own law, which is protected from approving error, says that circuмstance can allow passive attendance.
[/quote]
"It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).
so according to this if want to go to a greek orthodox funeral for a relative I can as long as there's no danger of perversion or of scandal..which I'm not sure what that would entail...I just se this as contradicting the pope's quote on the assembly of non catholics
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how can you be 100% sure when Pope Pius XI says "take part" that it doesn't include passive attendance...for example there's an assembly of Jєωs at some circuмcision ceremony, you go..aren't you taking part in it by simply attending? I think you would be taking a chance by merely attending ...but the other quote you gave seems to contradict this one.
We can be certain because the Church's own law, which is protected from approving error, says that circuмstance can allow passive attendance.
"It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).
so according to this if want to go to a greek orthodox funeral for a relative I can as long as there's no danger of perversion or of scandal..which I'm not sure what that would entail...I just se this as contradicting the pope's quote on the assembly of non catholics[/quote]
If you see Catholic teaching contradicting prior teaching then the problem is with your understanding, not with one of the teachings. There is a difference between active participation and passive attendance. It's not a difficult concept.
I've given you what approved canonists have to say about the canon. Rely on their judgement, not your own.
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how can you be 100% sure when Pope Pius XI says "take part" that it doesn't include passive attendance...for example there's an assembly of Jєωs at some circuмcision ceremony, you go..aren't you taking part in it by simply attending? I think you would be taking a chance by merely attending ...but the other quote you gave seems to contradict this one.
We can be certain because the Church's own law, which is protected from approving error, says that circuмstance can allow passive attendance.
"It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).
so according to this if want to go to a greek orthodox funeral for a relative I can as long as there's no danger of perversion or of scandal..which I'm not sure what that would entail...I just se this as contradicting the pope's quote on the assembly of non catholics
If you see Catholic teaching contradicting prior teaching then the problem is with your understanding, not with one of the teachings. There is a difference between active participation and passive attendance. It's not a difficult concept.
I've given you what approved canonists have to say about the canon. Rely on their judgement, not your own.[/quote]
you maybe right but can you see why it's not so clear cut for me
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
here you're interpreting the Pope's "take part" to mean active participation only, that he allowed passive attendance...I'm just not 100% sure
here's another quote to make me pause
Pope Pius VI,
Charitas
(# 31-32), April 13, 1791, speaking of priests who went along with
the notoriously heretical civil constitution of the clergy in France: “Above all, avoid and
condemn the sacrilegious intruders...do not hold communion with them especially in
divine worship .”
Speaking of priests who belong to the “Old Catholic” sect, which publicly rejects Vatican I and its
definition on Papal Infallibility, Pope Pius IX declared:
Pope Pius IX,
Graves ac diuturnae
(# 4), March 23, 1875: “
They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings,
and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established
to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with
them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any
jurisdiction.”
Canon 1258.1, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “It is
not licit for the faithful by any manner to
assist actively or to have a part in the sacred rites of non-Catholics.”
so here the "have a part " means what exactly? it can't mean assist actively ...doesn't i logically mean passive attendance?
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Read the quote from Bouscaren and Ellis again. There is a difference, they explain it, and if you don't understand it I can't help you.
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Gooch, I have highlighted this from MD's quotes:
It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.
From what I can see, this is where they distinguish the "take part" in passive attendance.
Maybe this will help.
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Gooch, I have highlighted this from MD's quotes:
It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.
From what I can see, this is where they distinguish the "take part" in passive attendance.
Maybe this will help.
Vermont , thanks, I agree if we take the canon alone then yes passive attendance maybe acceptable,the question now becomes do we simply ignore the past statement from popes ? like this one, does this statment not make you think twice? or is it just me?
Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:
Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”
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Gooch, I have highlighted this from MD's quotes:
It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.
From what I can see, this is where they distinguish the "take part" in passive attendance.
Maybe this will help.
Vermont , thanks, I agree if we take the canon alone then yes passive attendance maybe acceptable,the question now becomes do we simply ignore the past statement from popes ? like this one, does this statment not make you think twice? or is it just me?
Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:
Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”
Someone smarter than me will chime in I hope, but I am going to guess that in this case we would be talking about scandal. Given the time in Church history even passive attendance would be cause for scandal (which is something the aforementioned canon 1258 talks about).
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Gooch, I have highlighted this from MD's quotes:
It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.
From what I can see, this is where they distinguish the "take part" in passive attendance.
Maybe this will help.
Vermont , thanks, I agree if we take the canon alone then yes passive attendance maybe acceptable,the question now becomes do we simply ignore the past statement from popes ? like this one, does this statment not make you think twice? or is it just me?
Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:
Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”
Someone smarter than me will chime in I hope, but I am going to guess that in this case we would be talking about scandal. Given the time in Church history even passive attendance would be cause for scandal (which is something the aforementioned canon 1258 talks about).
This matter is for simple. Trust the Canon as it is infallibly protected and believe that the Canon cannot harm your soul.
A Catholic should never dig up proof texts against a Sacred Canon. The duty of a Catholic is to believe and obey.
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If an emergency worker was called to a scene at a protestant Church during a service, is he guilty of breaking this commandment?
If you're at a bus-stop and duck into a non-Catholic Church to use the bathroom while a service is going on, same question.
It's obvious that the material act of entering a building which is hosting non-Catholic worship is not sinful. The sin is when one is co-operating, participating or otherwise showing positive approval with the false religion.
Whether or not one sins by being in such a situation depends on several factors, all which have been mentioned already.
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Gooch, I have highlighted this from MD's quotes:
It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.
From what I can see, this is where they distinguish the "take part" in passive attendance.
Maybe this will help.
Vermont , thanks, I agree if we take the canon alone then yes passive attendance maybe acceptable,the question now becomes do we simply ignore the past statement from popes ? like this one, does this statment not make you think twice? or is it just me?
Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:
Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”
Someone smarter than me will chime in I hope, but I am going to guess that in this case we would be talking about scandal. Given the time in Church history even passive attendance would be cause for scandal (which is something the aforementioned canon 1258 talks about).
This matter is for simple. Trust the Canon as it is infallibly protected and believe that the Canon cannot harm your soul.
A Catholic should never dig up proof texts against a Sacred Canon. The duty of a Catholic is to believe and obey.
can you give me your thoughts on attending
1. the after party of a barmitzvah
2. novus order funeral of a relative
3 Jєωιѕн wedding after party
4. greekorthodox wedding of relative
5 Jєωιѕн edding the ceremony
are all these ok according to the canon if I just attend and sit there?
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So gooch, did you just wait to forget everything that transpired in this thread to post again?
To each of those instances listed:
Is there a grave reason to attend? If no, then you ought not to go. If yes, then:
Is there danger of perversion or scandal? If yes, then don't go. If no, then:
Is the attendance passive (as defined already within this thread)? If no, then don't go. If yes, then you're OK.
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So gooch, did you just wait to forget everything that transpired in this thread to post again?
To each of those instances listed:
Is there a grave reason to attend? If no, then you ought not to go. If yes, then:
Is there danger of perversion or scandal? If yes, then don't go. If no, then:
Is the attendance passive (as defined already within this thread)? If no, then don't go. If yes, then you're OK.
I've been rereading material and I'm not sure..but you say is there a grave reason to attend..what would constitute grave reason....basically it's funerals and batmitzvahs that I don't want to go to but my wife isn't traditional like me..I'm in a tough spot....I thought you were of the opinion that if it' s passive attendance it's ok..now you're telling me if there's no grave reason then even passive attendance is no good?
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:dancing-banana:
What is the moral principle behind the ecclesiastical law? If faith and morals are violated, don't go. If faith and morals are upheld, go. God's honor first, others' welfare next, your own desires last.
There are times when one must break civil law to keep Divine Law. Example, I deliberately ran a red light in order to allow an ambulance on a run to get through traffic. A man smashes down the door of an apartment and enters for the purpose of rescuing a child from a fire. It may be that you sin against your wife by refusing to go to a wedding or funeral or social function of her family. Love for your wife comes before your personal dislike of the event or the people at it.
Consider others next. Will your presence scandalise a weak Catholic for whom your example carries weight? (I refer to those for whom you are answerable to God, not to anonymous people on CI or to a couple from church who just happen to recognise you driving in a procession to the Jєωιѕн cemetery!) Will your children think it's okay to be both Jєωιѕн and Catholic? Will your one-time or occasional presence at the novus ordo lead the innocent or ignorant astray? Last of all, consider yourself. Will your faith be weakened or will you be seriously tempted to sin? (Note, I do not say "angered" by sin.)
If you simply cannot decide, speak to your priest and go with whatever advice he gives, even if you don't agree or even hate it! Pray about it, first and foremost. Sometimes God tests us with such questions. He looks for our loyalty and for our trust in Him. Know that He can be relied upon to work out the details AFTER we resolve to do His Will, no matter what.
The last time I was in a predicament about going to a relative's husband's funeral, (Mike planned for a "rock mass" while undergoing ultimately unsuccessful chemotherapy.), I determined to go and grit my teeth for the good of my cousin who specifically requested my presence. I booked a flight to Florida from Syracuse, NY for the day before the funeral. That very night God sent "The Blizzard of 1977" and nobody went anywhere for a week!
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This is the summary of what I got from a good explanation on the issue..does anyone disagree with this?
Hence, the Holy Office forbade Catholics to go to the funeral of non-Catholics, except from a causa civilis,28 i.e. from a civil cause. By this, it appears we are to understand that only those who hold a civil office or a position of prominence within a civic community could go to the funeral of a non-Catholic.
As for Catholics going to the marriages of Catholics being married outside of the Church, the Holy Office says this is forbidden by virtue of law (regula). However, it may be tolerated for a causa civilis,40 and provided that, scandal being removed, there is no perversion of the Faith or contempt for ecclesiastical authority.41 This meant that unless one had a civil cause, one was forbidden to go to the wedding