Author Topic: greek orthodox funeral, or a novus orderwedding  (Read 3646 times)

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Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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greek orthodox funeral, or a novus orderwedding
« on: January 15, 2014, 07:20:35 PM »
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  • Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church

     

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo

    Offline OHCA

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    greek orthodox funeral, or a novus orderwedding
    « Reply #1 on: January 15, 2014, 09:53:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church

     

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo


    Attending anything involving an NO "mass" makes one complicit to sacrilege.  It's either mimicking something sacred or it's being irreverent to something sacred--it's sacrilege either way.


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 07:37:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: gooch
    Where do you stand on attending a greek orthodox funeral, or a wedding at a novus order church

     

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II Jo


    Attending anything involving an NO "mass" makes one complicit to sacrilege.  It's either mimicking something sacred or it's being irreverent to something sacred--it's sacrilege either way.

    I agree, how about attending the wake, what guidelines do you use, for example someone who didn't lead a very catholic life dies, your friend is the brother, do you go? basically all of my friends don't lead a very catholic life, their parents die, should I go to the wake ..all of them are novus ordo

    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 08:13:48 PM »
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  • I'm no authority, but it would seem to me that stopping by during visitation to pay condolences would be ok in most instances.  I am not sure that I have ever attended a true wake.  What I have attended is the Rosary the evening before the funeral.  It seems to me that, too, would be ok in most instances.  I haven't ever seen anything out of line.  But both sides of my family is fairly conservative in NO in parishes that are middle of the road to conservative.

    I am not sure what I would do if the luminous mysteries were going to be the focus.  If it was very close family, I would insist on the traditional mysteries.  Otherwise, not sure whether I would mentally meditate on the traditional or not attend at all.  Also, I would be very protective to not expose children to such things as the luminous mysteries and all dogs go to Heaven mentality.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 08:24:13 PM »
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  • The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.
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    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 08:45:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.

    this is debateable..what about this
    Pope Pius XI,
    Mortalium Animos
    (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
    this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
    the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
    2

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #6 on: January 16, 2014, 08:50:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.

    this is debateable..what about this
    Pope Pius XI,
    Mortalium Animos
    (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
    this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
    the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
    2


    What about it?  Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services..  They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.

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    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #7 on: January 16, 2014, 08:56:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.

    this is debateable..what about this
    Pope Pius XI,
    Mortalium Animos
    (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
    this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
    the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
    2


    What about it?  Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services..  They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.


    what's the difference in your mind between

    assist actively
    or
     to have a part in the sacred rites

     what would consist precisely of" have a part in sacred rites?"


    Offline Ursus

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    greek orthodox funeral, or a novus orderwedding
    « Reply #8 on: January 16, 2014, 09:24:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.

    this is debateable..what about this
    Pope Pius XI,
    Mortalium Animos
    (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
    this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
    the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
    2


    What about it?  Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services..  They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.


    what's the difference in your mind between

    assist actively
    or
     to have a part in the sacred rites

     what would consist precisely of" have a part in sacred rites?"



    Attend but don't drink the grape juice.  :laugh1:

    Passive attendance of a major life event death, marriage should be fine, but with limitations, especially on the marriage part.


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    greek orthodox funeral, or a novus orderwedding
    « Reply #9 on: January 16, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ursus
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.

    this is debateable..what about this
    Pope Pius XI,
    Mortalium Animos
    (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
    this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
    the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
    2


    What about it?  Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services..  They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.


    what's the difference in your mind between

    assist actively
    or
     to have a part in the sacred rites

     what would consist precisely of" have a part in sacred rites?"



    Attend but don't drink the grape juice.  :laugh1:

    Passive attendance of a major life event death, marriage should be fine, but with limitations, especially on the marriage part.


    Canon 1258.1, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “It is
    not licit for the faithful by any manner to
    assist actively or to have a part in the sacred rites of non-Catholics.

    passive attendance to  a jewish funeral is fine with you? jewish marriage is fine with you?
    the jew, greek orthodox , novus order marriage or funeral are all fine with you or do you make distictions between them?

     I'm not sure what the canon really means by "to have a part"

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #10 on: January 16, 2014, 10:43:55 PM »
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  • Gooch, here are the canonists Bouscaren and Ellis on the canon in question:

    "It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

    1. Active Participation.  A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reaosn, for example mere civility or friendship.  All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

    2. Passive Presence.  The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence."  A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action.  It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.  The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material.  Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circumstances or consequences.  Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal.  The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations."  Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology (Bouscaren and Ellis, 1946, pp 639-640 emphasis added)."



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    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #11 on: January 16, 2014, 11:00:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Gooch, here are the canonists Bouscaren and Ellis on the canon in question:

    "It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

    1. Active Participation.  A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reaosn, for example mere civility or friendship.  All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

    2. Passive Presence.  The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence."  A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action.  It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.  The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material.  Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circumstances or consequences.  Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal.  The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations."  Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology (Bouscaren and Ellis, 1946, pp 639-640 emphasis added)."




    thanks
    example
    your parent dies, novus order, you go to wake, forget about the funeral?..wait outside? stay in the back of the church? do you make any distinctions between a jewish friend's wake and a novus order?

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #12 on: January 16, 2014, 11:11:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.

    this is debateable..what about this
    Pope Pius XI,
    Mortalium Animos
    (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
    this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
    the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
    2


    What about it?  Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services..  They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.


    how can you be 100% sure when Pope Pius XI says "take part" that it doesn't include passive attendance...for example there's an assembly of jews at some circumcision ceremony, you go..aren't you taking part in it by simply attending? I think you would be taking a chance by merely attending ...but the other quote you gave seems to contradict this one.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #13 on: January 16, 2014, 11:13:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Gooch, here are the canonists Bouscaren and Ellis on the canon in question:

    "It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

    1. Active Participation.  A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reaosn, for example mere civility or friendship.  All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

    2. Passive Presence.  The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence."  A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action.  It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law.  The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material.  Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circumstances or consequences.  Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal.  The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations."  Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology (Bouscaren and Ellis, 1946, pp 639-640 emphasis added)."




    thanks
    example
    your parent dies, novus order, you go to wake, forget about the funeral?..wait outside? stay in the back of the church? do you make any distinctions between a jewish friend's wake and a novus order?


    I don't see why a person would be obliged to not attend their parent's funeral.

    The canon doesn't distinguish between different types of non-Catholic events.  The Novus Ordo is treated the same way as any other non-Catholic event.  A grave reason can justify passive attendance.  
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 11:20:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Church allows passive attendance at non-Catholic services if civic duty compels us to.

    this is debateable..what about this
    Pope Pius XI,
    Mortalium Animos
    (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
    this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
    the assemblies of non-Catholics...”
    2


    What about it?  Catholics are not allowed to take part in non-Catholic services..  They are allowed to conditionally and passively attend.


    how can you be 100% sure when Pope Pius XI says "take part" that it doesn't include passive attendance...for example there's an assembly of jews at some circumcision ceremony, you go..aren't you taking part in it by simply attending? I think you would be taking a chance by merely attending ...but the other quote you gave seems to contradict this one.


    We can be certain because the Church's own law, which is protected from approving error, says that circumstance can allow passive attendance.  

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