Author Topic: Greatest Impediment to Traditionalist Movement (Read 4834 times)

radtrad · « **on:** September 07, 2009, 03:54:58 PM »

What is the greatest impediment to the traditionalist movement?

I heard a sermon on audiosancto that discussed this. The priest concluded that the pride of traditionalists is what slows down the traditionalist movement. The traditionalist movement is "infected with pharisees" he said.

Caraffa · « **Reply #1 on:** September 07, 2009, 04:23:50 PM »

Its true in some sense. A pharisee is one who is a hypocrite, one who says one, but does another. They hold others to higher standards than that which they themselves fallow. There are certainly Traditionalists who are like this and believe that just merely discovering the Tradition/Latin Mass=Election. They complain about the Novus Ordo, but are hardly different from many Novus Ordo Catholics. Those who correct the priest are usually those who think Rock Music is OK, no need for modesty/skirts/decent dress, think they can disagree on doctrinal points, etc.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 07, 2009, 07:03:47 PM »

Caraffa, no offense, but THIS is what you think is impeding the traditional movement?

Quote

Those who correct the priest are usually those who think Rock Music is OK, no need for modesty/skirts/decent dress, think they can disagree on doctrinal points,

That our dress code isn't strict enough? If anything traditionalists put people off with their emphasis on dress at the expense of so many more important truths. It makes them come off like Mennonites and Jansenists.

What people need to wake up is the truth about the cօռspιʀαcιҽs of the last several hundred years and of the forces of Anti-Christ vs. God's Church. They do not need ankle-length skirts as much as they need the BIG PICTURE that will allow them to make sense of what they think are their random, meaningless lives. But the big picture is so grim and horrible that almost no one wants to face it.

This has the effect of a snowball turning into an avalanche; the more people decide to ignore reality, the more they all decide en masse, like lemmings, that they can reject God and get away with it, that it can't be wrong if EVERYONE is doing it. The few people left who remain in the faith then come off as absolute madmen, and this makes it even harder for them to convert anyone.

No, rock-music-listening sedevacantists are not the problem. The problem is simply that the devil has tapped into a vein of lies that have put the world into a trance.

Look at what we have against us -- competing anti-Christ systems of government, communism from the East and Church-state separation in the West; TV and rock music blitzing the brains of the populace; nonstop propaganda in Jєωιѕн owned newspapers and films putting the spirit of mockery and irreverence into the masses; an entire drugged, hedonistic culture for whom concepts of penance and sacrifice are so foreign you might as well be speaking Swahili.

What are we supposed to do to make people understand? If you are too tepid, or don't tell the full truth, you are a compromiser. I am someone who tells the full truth, or as much as I know of it, in all its detail and come off as incensed, which maybe I need to work on. My mom, my only convert so far, told me that I am like a jackhammer and cruel and that I broke her down, but then again, she DID get herself baptised and comes with me to Church... She does now see all the lies she has been fed all her life. My theory is that when someone is sleeping on a train track, and you hear the choo-choo whistling, you don't tap them on the shoulder gently; you scream.

Not everyone is meant to understand. If they wouldn't even listen to Christ how many will listen to us? I am not going to blame myself for this; I am not going to blame myself for not speaking as well as Christ, or for not combining humility, truth and justice as well as Him, because I am only a human and servant doing my best. I do not have the magical formula of parables in order to bring the elect to repentance. My "jackhammer" personality is all I have so it's what I use.

I have sought the kingdom of God and I genuinely try to bring people to the truth. I am no Pharisee and am squeaky clean. Well, they don't want it. In fact it is precisely the fact that I do try to live up to these principles that makes people uncomfortable.

They just make excuses; if you are Mel Gibson, you are a hypocrite, and if you are squeaky-clean and saintly, you're a prig. There's no winning with those who have rejected God, whatever you do is wrong, at least until they receive the grace of faith. I understand it very well. I once scoffed at religion myself, having been brainwahed that way. It takes a true miracle to save anyone these days.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 07, 2009, 07:06:35 PM »

"I am no Pharisee and am squeaky clean..."

A squeaky-clean sinner anyway... :sign-surrender:

radtrad · « **Reply #4 on:** September 07, 2009, 07:34:54 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

But the big picture is so grim and horrible that almost no one wants to face it.

This has the effect of a snowball turning into an avalanche; the more people decide to ignore reality, the more they all decide en masse, like lemmings, that they can reject God and get away with it, that it can't be wrong if EVERYONE is doing it. The few people left who remain in the faith then come off as absolute madmen, and this makes it even harder for them to convert anyone.

That's a good point. When people start to investigate the traditionalists' criticisms, they realize how bad the "church" really is and can't see how it can be healed.

I know that when I started to really study the issues, it was very grim... and it still is! I can still remember what I thought and felt when looking over all the rampant heresy throughout the Church. It really is quite hopeless, from a human point of view.

Caraffa · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2009, 08:18:46 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Caraffa, no offense, but THIS is what you think is impeding the traditional movement?

Quote
Those who correct the priest are usually those who think Rock Music is OK, no need for modesty/skirts/decent dress, think they can disagree on doctrinal points,

That our dress code isn't strict enough? If anything traditionalists put people off with their emphasis on dress at the expense of so many more important truths. It makes them come off like Mennonites and Jansenists.

What people need to wake up is the truth about the cօռspιʀαcιҽs of the last several hundred years and of the forces of Anti-Christ vs. God's Church. They do not need ankle-length skirts as much as they need the BIG PICTURE that will allow them to make sense of what they think are their random, meaningless lives. But the big picture is so grim and horrible that almost no one wants to face it.

I certainly agree that we need to see the big picture and that our focus should first be converting the person without compromise on doctrinal points of-course. The problem is, there are those who wish to compromise on certain points.

Quote

This has the effect of a snowball turning into an avalanche; the more people decide to ignore reality, the more they all decide en masse, like lemmings, that they can reject God and get away with it, that it can't be wrong if EVERYONE is doing it. The few people left who remain in the faith then come off as absolute madmen, and this makes it even harder for them to convert anyone.

No, rock-music-listening sedevacantists are not the problem. The problem is simply that the devil has tapped into a vein of lies that have put the world into a trance.

Unfortunately, modern pop/rock music listening Trads are the problem. This "fiftiesism"/social modernism if you will, completely undermines the cultural criticism that many Traditional Catholic bishops, priests, and lay people have put forward. Fr Ripperger, who works with exorcists has even stated that it is best to get such things out of your house. However, at the same time, we must have replacements as well as good reasons behind why we reject it.

Quote

Look at what we have against us -- competing anti-Christ systems of government, communism from the East and Church-state separation in the West; TV and rock music blitzing the brains of the populace; nonstop propaganda in Jєωιѕн owned newspapers and films putting the spirit of mockery and irreverence into the masses; an entire drugged, hedonistic culture for whom concepts of penance and sacrifice are so foreign you might as well be speaking Swahili.

What are we supposed to do to make people understand? If you are too tepid, or don't tell the full truth, you are a compromiser. I am someone who tells the full truth, or as much as I know of it, in all its detail and come off as incensed, which maybe I need to work on. My mom, my only convert so far, told me that I am like a jackhammer and cruel and that I broke her down, but then again, she DID get herself baptised and comes with me to Church... She does now see all the lies she has been fed all her life. My theory is that when someone is sleeping on a train track, and you hear the choo-choo whistling, you don't tap them on the shoulder gently; you scream.

Not everyone is meant to understand. If they wouldn't even listen to Christ how many will listen to us? I am not going to blame myself for this; I am not going to blame myself for not speaking as well as Christ, or for not combining humility, truth and justice as well as Him, because I am only a human and servant doing my best. I do not have the magical formula of parables in order to bring the elect to repentance. My "jackhammer" personality is all I have so it's what I use.

I have sought the kingdom of God and I genuinely try to bring people to the truth. I am no Pharisee and am squeaky clean. Well, they don't want it. In fact it is precisely the fact that I do try to live up to these principles that makes people uncomfortable.

They just make excuses; if you are Mel Gibson, you are a hypocrite, and if you are squeaky-clean and saintly, you're a prig. There's no winning with those who have rejected God, whatever you do is wrong, at least until they receive the grace of faith. I understand it very well. I once scoffed at religion myself, having been brainwahed that way. It takes a true miracle to save anyone these days.

I would consider someone like Gibson to be a pharisee. He wanted to show off how holy he was, yet he didn't practice what he preached.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 07, 2009, 09:32:19 PM »

Catholics should absolutely not listen to rock music or even watch movies, Caraffa, but I'm saying that this is not the main impediment to people joining the traditionalist movement. The main impediment is that they might be ripped out of their comfort zone. It's pretty hard to transition from their blissful "Everyone is saved" mentality to an "Almost no one will be saved" mentality. The world goes from a playground to a battleground.

Most Novus Ordo Catholics, not to mention pagans, think that you can make up your own religion as you go. How disagreeable it is to discover that God actually doesn't love you unconditionally but asks for conformity to His will, and that He is a lot stricter than they'll tell you on T.V.

I don't know if Mel Gibson is a Pharisee or just a bad Catholic. But he works in Jєωιѕн Hollywood and has always done their bidding. It is VERY remarkable that they would allow someone of the traditionalist Catholic persuasion to join their ranks; but then he does make films like The Patriot which promote the brainwashing view of American history, with the heroic patriots overthrowing the sneering, effete Brits.

The way he handled his affair was startling. He shows up at a premiere with the girlfriend and then goes on a late-night talk show and makes jokes about it. If he were PAID to make Catholics look bad, he couldn't have done a better job -- is that what is going on? Is he paid to make Catholics look bad?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2009, 02:46:32 AM »

Quote from: Caraffa

Unfortunately, modern pop/rock music listening Trads are the problem.

No, they are NOT - no matter how many times you assert such an idea.

Yes, SOME sheep are too ensnared by the modern world. However, the far bigger problem is that many shepherds do not have a sufficiently intense interior life to have a real impact upon those in their flocks. The salt has, in many cases, totally lost its savor.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2009, 02:48:53 AM »

That many sheep in Traddieland listen to this or that music is NOT even a POSSIBLE CAUSE of the illness. It is, AT MOST, one of the SYMPTOMS.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2009, 03:46:20 AM »

Quote from: radtrad

What is the greatest impediment to the traditionalist movement?

Considering the constantly-rotten fruit, it seems fitting (albeit far from pretty) to say that the traditionalist bowel movement needs and enema. The 'GI tract' of this 'body' needs to be cleansed.

As for those in Traddieland who listen to Rock being the cause of the problem rather than a symptom, such a statement is a kind of pharisaism (or, at least, another pharisee-induced symptom). It reveals one of the chief effects of pharisaism: inverted perspective/looking at things from the wrong end.

Such is part of the bad fruit. If I ask, "Why is the fruit from this tree bad?," it is complete nonsense to answer that the bad fruit is the cause of the problem.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2009, 03:47:32 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

...the traditionalist bowel movement needs and enema...

Should be "an", not "and" - sorry.

Caraffa · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2009, 12:46:11 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

That many sheep in Traddieland listen to this or that music is NOT even a POSSIBLE CAUSE of the illness. It is, AT MOST, one of the SYMPTOMS.

Yes, I agree that it is a symptom or maybe even a secondary cause. But what is the primary cause? A rejection of counter-revolution, Americanism, implicit progressivism, etc. If the tree bares bad fruit, it is a bad tree deserving to be cut down. Outward actions(fruit) suggest inward dispositions.

Belloc · « **Reply #12 on:** September 08, 2009, 12:51:36 PM »

Quote from: radtrad

What is the greatest impediment to the traditionalist movement?

I heard a sermon on audiosancto that discussed this. The priest concluded that the pride of traditionalists is what slows down the traditionalist movement. The traditionalist movement is "infected with pharisees" he said.

Anger without positive action.....lack of charity.......one can be in the trenches too long and resemble a Calvinist or attack dog too much.....Most Trads get the theology right, but do not know how to apply it, resembling a Fundie approach of "thats waht it says, thats what it means" and looking no further into context, application,etc........I can agree, at times, with the pride part and also the Phariseesism......too many Trads have practically made themselves Pope.....

I defense, the complete meltdown and heresy of the last 50+ yrs is understandable in the anger, but many forget the part of "be of good cheer"

Matthew · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2009, 12:54:10 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: radtrad
What is the greatest impediment to the traditionalist movement?

Considering the constantly-rotten fruit, it seems fitting (albeit far from pretty) to say that the traditionalist bowel movement needs and enema. The 'GI tract' of this 'body' needs to be cleansed.

As for those in Traddieland who listen to Rock being the cause of the problem rather than a symptom, such a statement is a kind of pharisaism (or, at least, another pharisee-induced symptom). It reveals one of the chief effects of pharisaism: inverted perspective/looking at things from the wrong end.

Such is part of the bad fruit. If I ask, "Why is the fruit from this tree bad?," it is complete nonsense to answer that the bad fruit is the cause of the problem.

Sed contra (on the other hand),

Our Lord certainly had no faults, yet how many people failed to follow Him when He was on earth? They were rotten fruit, living evil lives completely unaffected by the supreme holiness that was Our Lord.

A good and holy priest will help turn people around, yes, but the people still have CHOOSE the straight and narrow path -- they have to use their Free Will as well.

And the world is more seductive that it's ever been before. People tell me, "I don't know, the world has always been a stumbling block" but how long has the world had luxuries for the poor? Passive entertainment in every house 24/7 like television and DVD movies, filled with anti-Catholic (and un-natural) propaganda? People completely detached from reality thanks to technology? Never before have people been allowed to be THIS un-mortified.

Matthew

Belloc · « **Reply #14 on:** September 08, 2009, 12:54:18 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Catholics should absolutely not listen to rock music or even watch movies,
Quote

No movies at all? What about the Passion? The Robe? anything???