Author Topic: My take on the crux of the issue (Read 425 times)

DecemRationis · « **on:** July 10, 2020, 06:23:51 PM »

Over the years I have found myself waffling between various responses to the post-Vatican II crisis in the Church. At times I have adopted the Sedevacantist position, in both its home alone and less extreme variants; at times I have considered the R & R position (recognize and resist to the extent of rejecting the NO Mass and sacraments while recognizing the pope, etc.) to be the correct response; and, at other times I have attended the Novus Ordo while, as it were, holding my nose, because, if the Conciliar popes are indeed popes, then that is the thing to do and will bind me to Christ and His true Church.

I have often waffled between these positions repeatedly, with sometimes a change every few months.

Here is how I see the issue and grapple with it:

1) If the teachings pre-Vatican II in the theological manuals and in various expressions of popes in encyclicals is correct regarding the Church's indefectibility and infallibility, then, in light of the manifest theological errors of Vatican II and the Conciliar Church, the Sedevacantist position would have to be the true response. A representative of the Church's teaching on indefectibility would be Pius XII's expression in Mystici Corporis -

Quote

Certainly the loving Mother is spotless in the Sacraments by which she gives birth to and nourishes her children; in the faith which she has always preserved inviolate; in her sacred laws imposed on all; in the evangelical counsels which she recommends; in those heavenly gifts and extraordinary grace through which with inexhaustible fecundity,[130] she generates hosts of martyrs, virgins and confessors.

2) The Church's understanding of Her indefectibility pre-Vatican II (mostly in late 19th and then 20th century theological manuals and papal encyclicals) is bloated and overstated, and hence errors (to use the language of Pius XII above, "spots") in the post-Vatican II or Conciliar Church are not contradictions breaking upon the law of contradiction and necessitating the rejection of the V2 Church as a continuation of the "indefectible" Catholic Church, and recognition of it as a different entity. If some form of error ('spot") is allowable in the ecclesia docens, then the presence of error obviously does not present a contradiction. Of course, then the issue becomes when may there be error and when not, or when is the Church reliable and bankable in speaking as the voice of Revelation (the extraordinary Magisterium only perhaps) so that the role appointed for her by Our Lord may be preserved and fulfilled even with some level of "error" present: for example, the Church being "spotless" in her provision of the sacraments and the essential dogmas necessary to believe for salvation, i.e., infallible in providing(and even the one, exclusive means of providing) the things necessary for men to reach heaven.

I do not see how one can adopt the R & R position without an understanding something like the second paragraph. As I said, I have entertained that position and can see it as being supported from Scripture, particularly in the model of the Old Covenant Church, which had lawful authority (the true authority, even recognized as such by Our Lord - Matthew 23:2) in the kingdom of God, but at the same time that authority could contain errors or "spots" in its tradition and teachings, even being contrary to the Word of God in the same (see Matthew 15 and Mark 7 regarding the traditions of the Pharisees).

So, the reality of the V2 Church shows us a "Magisterium" acting like its forebear under the old Covenant in Israel, and yet the teachings of Pius XII (and other places which of course can be cited) tell us this is impossible. And I want to believe Pius XII is right and speaking infallibly in that sentence of Mystici Corporis, but . . .

I struggle under the weight of these considerations and grope along trying to find my way.

Miseremini · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2020, 06:33:04 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on July 10, 2020, 06:23:51 PM

I struggle under the weight of these considerations and grope along trying to find my way.

Welcome to the choir

DecemRationis · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2020, 06:41:02 PM »

Quote from: Miseremini on July 10, 2020, 06:33:04 PM

Welcome to the choir

Yep.

The choir needs to sing, and needs those other voices.

Plenus Venter · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2020, 07:19:04 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on July 10, 2020, 06:41:02 PM

Yep.

The choir needs to sing, and needs those other voices.

The choir needs to sing in tune! More out of tune voices will only add to the cacophony.
You will find the answer if you meditate on the Church's infallible doctrine of Papal Infallibility. It is very important to really do this, and not have our own ideas of what the Magisterium should be.
This doctrine does not state that the Magisterium is always infallible, but only under very precise conditions.
Now the Magisterium in Vatican II and all the wayward reforms that have followed it has specifically refused to engage its Infallibility.
If we follow the Church and Her infallible Magisterium, we will find ourselves Traditional Catholics and resisting the novelties of the Church's current Magisterium, without denying that that Magisterium is invested with authority from God. The frail, sinful human beings who occupy the offices of that Magisterium can teach error whenever they do not engage their God-given gift of Infallibility.
There is no need to sing a new song. That's what Martin Luther did.

Stubborn · « **Reply #4 on:** July 11, 2020, 05:20:03 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on July 10, 2020, 06:23:51 PM

1) If the teachings pre-Vatican II in the theological manuals and in various expressions of popes in encyclicals is correct regarding the Church's indefectibility and infallibility, then, in light of the manifest theological errors of Vatican II and the Conciliar Church, the Sedevacantist position would have to be the true response. A representative of the Church's teaching on indefectibility would be Pius XII's expression in Mystici Corporis -

Quote
Certainly the loving Mother is spotless in the Sacraments by which she gives birth to and nourishes her children; in the faith which she has always preserved inviolate; in her sacred laws imposed on all; in the evangelical counsels which she recommends; in those heavenly gifts and extraordinary grace through which with inexhaustible fecundity,[130] she generates hosts of martyrs, virgins and confessors.

But what of the sentences below that immediately precede your quote of Pope Pius XII above?

66. And if at times there appears in the Church something that indicates the weakness of our human nature, it should not be attributed to her juridical constitution, but rather to that regrettable inclination to evil found in each individual, which its Divine Founder permits even at times in the most exalted members of His Mystical Body, for the purpose of testing the virtue of the Shepherds no less than of the flocks, and that all may increase the merit of their Christian faith. For, as We said above, Christ did not wish to exclude sinners from His Church; hence if some of her members are suffering from spiritual maladies, that is no reason why we should lessen our love for the Church, but rather a reason why we should increase our devotion to her members. Certainly the loving Mother is spotless...."

Better for you to contemplate the above quote as it bespeaks of this crisis.

That the Church, which is Christ, will remain forever and will remain forever spotless is the foundation of our holy faith. This means even now, today, this minute and always, the loving Mother is spotless. If you are doubting or questioning the foundation, it is mainly a matter of faith.

Just as Christ, being beaten, bruised and crucified was unrecognizable as God 2000 years ago, so goes the Church today.

Author Topic: My take on the crux of the issue (Read 425 times)

DecemRationis

My take on the crux of the issue

Miseremini

Re: My take on the crux of the issue

DecemRationis

Re: My take on the crux of the issue

Plenus Venter

Re: My take on the crux of the issue

Stubborn

Re: My take on the crux of the issue