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Author Topic: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?  (Read 1207 times)

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Offline rum

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Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
« on: February 24, 2020, 10:42:31 AM »
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  • What are some good indicators of possible Catholicity?

    I'll throw some out there.

    Someone saying:

    "I'm Catholic." -- This could include just about anyone. Too broad to be useful.
    "I'm a traditional Catholic." -- Max Krah (I could give many more names) calls himself a traditional Catholic.  Not useful either.
    "I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church." -- Including the teachings that are no longer emphasized, such as that the Jєωιѕн people are Children of the Devil? You believe that, too? Even if someone says this it doesn't tell me that I can know they're Catholic in any way but possibly a baptismal sense. What they could mean is that they believe in all the teachings given emphasis by the Novus Ordo church. The Novus Ordo has stripped Catholicism of much of the meat. That you're a good Novus Ordo Catholic means you might better be described as a noahide. Plenty of "traditional Catholics" strike me as noahides.

    "I'm anti-Jєωιѕн"
    "The h0Ɩ0cαųst didn't happen"

    The two above could be said by many different types of people as well, so I wouldn't know, with no other information, if the person saying those two things is Catholic. There are people from all backgrounds (even some Jєωs) who know the h0Ɩ0cαųst is hogwash. Even saying the two statements in combination along with "I'm Catholic" still isn't enough.

    "I'm Catholic."
    "I'm anti-Jєωιѕн."
    "The h0Ɩ0cαųst didn't happen."

    In this day and age it's the best compass I can find, though it's not reliable 100% of the time. (At least 1 member on this forum says all three of these things and yet has been a big fan of a major Judaizer and h0Ɩ0h0αx promoter.) If the SSPX had used the above 3 statements as a standard from which to determine the Catholicity of leaders and laity for possible expulsion Fellay/Krah would have found it impossible, or at least much more difficult, to take over the SSPX. The SSPX would have possessed a vigilant Jєω-awareness, which it lacked.

    The misfortunes of the Church in recent centuries can be attributed to more than one thing, but the fact of Judaization would be at the top, or near to it.

    It's likely that at some point in the future the Jєωs will take credit for discovering the fraud of the h0Ɩ0h0αx, and it will be forgotten how they used this fake event in all sorts of nefarious ways. The persecution of h0Ɩ0cαųst revisionists will be blamed on gentiles and a few bad Jєωs, with Jєωs not being viewed as the wizard behind the curtain. Then new litmus tests will have to be formulated based on future Jєωιѕн frauds. Jєωs are snakes. They shed their skin from time to time and grow a new one. Changing times require new deceits.

    There's a saying that when the fortunes of the Jєωs are good the fortunes of the Church are dismal. And vice versa. The fortunes of the Church can be good if the Church returned to putting emphasis on the satanic nature of the Jєω.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #1 on: February 24, 2020, 01:37:06 PM »
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  • What I look for is the rejection of modernism, expressed in two main ways: Firstly, a deep, traditional, Catholic understanding has moral absolutes.  We talk of good and evil, right and wrong, without relativism.  We recognize the role of the subjective but do not use it to replace the objective.

    Secondly, we have a concept of authoritative teaching (even if there are disagreements among us about details).  The Catholic Church has the authority and ability to teach the truth in a way that no other institution does.  Scripture is true and from God. So is Tradition. The Church has the ability to interpret and teach these.

    There are also specific issues which are good indicators of a traditional Catholic approach.  We believe that Catholicism is uniquely true and valid, not simply one religion among others, nor an interchangeable variation of Christianity.

    We understand that the Blessed Virgin Mary is our Mother and our Queen.  We have a deep visceral attachment to her.

    We understand that error has no rights.  There is no right to spread wrong and false ideas.

    We understand that there is such a thing as natural law, know what that means, and have it as the basis for our view of sɛҳuąƖity and marriage.

    We understand that human life begins at conception and has a right to life.  (Some non-Catholics understand this, but it should be obviously true to everyone, so that is not surprising.)

    We understand that the religion of the Old Testament was completed by Christ and has been superseded.  The Hebrew people were chosen to bring the Saviour to the world and that has been accomplished. Modern Judaism is centuries of accuмulated human traditions, formed by the rejection of Christ and opposition to Christianity.  We are skeptical of claims of "anti-semitism" and understand that these are typically to tool for social and political manipulation.

    I think that Catholics would normally have all or most of these characteristics since they are all interconnected.  Having this cluster of ideas is a better indicator than trying to rely on one specific issue.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 03:10:32 PM »
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  • I would look mainly at a person's attitudes about the changes of Vatican II. If they think Vatican II was just fine and the changes that happened in the sixties are not a problem, then I would probably consider them modernists. But if they are deeply troubled by the novelties since the sixties, and love basically everything Catholic before that, then I would assume they are truly Catholic.
    .
    Good question, but it can be hard to tell sometimes.

    Offline rum

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 03:46:59 PM »
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  • I think that Catholics would normally have all or most of these characteristics since they are all interconnected.  Having this cluster of ideas is a better indicator than trying to rely on one specific issue.

    There's no reliance on one specific issue. One is looking for some quality that strongly suggests many other good things.

    The Jєωs being the root of almost all heresies makes anti-Jєωιѕнness something approaching a catch-all litmus test, for if a Catholic is anti-Jєωιѕн it diminishes (but doesn't cancel) the likelihood of that Catholic holding to major errors.

    And if the Catholic, in addition to being anti-Jєωιѕн, is also aware of the h0Ɩ0h0αx he will be much better equipped to size up the relative value of current events and better read the signs of the times.

    I won't immediately be certain that a Catholic isn't deeply flawed concerning Church teaching merely by him saying "error has no rights" or because I know he's anti-child murder.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline rum

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #4 on: February 24, 2020, 03:48:21 PM »
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  • I would look mainly at a person's attitudes about the changes of Vatican II. If they think Vatican II was just fine and the changes that happened in the sixties are not a problem, then I would probably consider them modernists. But if they are deeply troubled by the novelties since the sixties, and love basically everything Catholic before that, then I would assume they are truly Catholic.
    .
    Good question, but it can be hard to tell sometimes.
    I know of people who are nostalgic for the pre-Vatican II Church who also have no problem with Jєωs.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 04:27:55 PM »
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  • There's no reliance on one specific issue. One is looking for some quality that strongly suggests many other good things.
    If I had to choose just one quality then I would pick love of Our Lady.  One of her titles is "Hammer of heretics." This role is reflected in the Matins antiphon for the Feast of the Assumption: "Rejoice, Virgin Mary: you alone have crushed all heresies in the whole world."

    She constantly leads those who love her toward truth and to her Son who is Truth.  In our time which suffers under so much error and heresy, those devoted to Our Lady have the best protection from it.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 04:52:32 PM »
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  • "I'm Catholic."
    "I'm anti-Jєωιѕн."
    "The h0Ɩ0cαųst didn't happen."

    In this day and age it's the best compass I can find, though it's not reliable 100% of the time. (At least 1 member on this forum says all three of these things and yet has been a big fan of a major Judaizer and h0Ɩ0h0αx promoter.) If the SSPX had used the above 3 statements as a standard from which to determine the Catholicity of leaders and laity for possible expulsion Fellay/Krah would have found it impossible, or at least much more difficult, to take over the SSPX. 
    You define Catholicism by adherence to two negatives?  One cannot prove a negative, only a positive.  (Common sense?)    Example: An atheist cannot prove the non-existence of God, for he must first define the God in which he doesn't believe in order to then make the claim for His non-existence.  
    All your test of Catholicity proves is that a particular claimant to the Catholic faith agrees with your personal interpretation, however, we know that a true Catholic must agree solely and entirely with the doctrine as taught through all time by the  Magisterium.

    Offline Parasitic Eww

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 05:10:47 PM »
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  • You define Catholicism by adherence to two negatives?  One cannot prove a negative, only a positive.  (Common sense?)

    "One cannot prove a negative" is itself a negative.

    You aren't in my living room. That's a negative, and I can prove it by observing my living room and confirming you're not there. I just proved a negative.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #8 on: February 24, 2020, 05:12:18 PM »
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  • By "Catholicity" do you mean membership in the Catholic religion? Your terms are unclear. In any case, someone can believe the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened and also be a good Catholic. Rejection of the h0Ɩ0cαųst is not a dogma of the Catholic faith.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #9 on: February 24, 2020, 05:29:06 PM »
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  • "One cannot prove a negative" is itself a negative.

    You aren't in my living room. That's a negative, and I can prove it by observing my living room and confirming you're not there. I just proved a negative.
    I may not be a human.  I could be an angel or an AI robot spying on you through a device in your living room.   :jester:
    Do you think the essence of Catholicism is to be anti-Jєωιѕн and know the h0Ɩ0cαųst is a hoax?   Many a conservative Protestant believes the same things.  It wouldn't prove to me that he was "Christian" or even a protestant--- "I'm a _________ . " (Insert name of his particular sect.)

    Offline rum

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #10 on: February 24, 2020, 05:40:30 PM »
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  • You define Catholicism by adherence to two negatives?  One cannot prove a negative, only a positive.  (Common sense?)    Example: An atheist cannot prove the non-existence of God, for he must first define the God in which he doesn't believe in order to then make the claim for His non-existence.  
    All your test of Catholicity proves is that a particular claimant to the Catholic faith agrees with your personal interpretation, however, we know that a true Catholic must agree solely and entirely with the doctrine as taught through all time by the  Magisterium.

    I don't define Catholicism by anything other than Catholicism. I'm merely looking for bellringers that suggest that the person who thinks he's Catholic really is Catholic.

    There are lots of people who think they're something, and they're not who they think they are. Many people who call themselves Catholic would have been excommunicated in more faithful times.

    I could find many "Catholics" who say they accept all the teachings of the Magisterium. And then I say, "So you accept that the Jєωιѕн people are wicked for all times, unless they sincerely convert?" They reply, "How dare you! That's antisemitic!"

    You see what I mean?
    One cannot be Catholic, except in a baptismal sense, if one is not anti-Jєωιѕн. Further, anyone who is anti-Jєωιѕн will be wise to schemes of Jєωs, or at least of some of their schemes, such as the h0Ɩ0h0αx. Being anti-Jєωιѕн, the Jєωs being the root of most or all heresies, gives me a decent idea of the depth of the Catholicity on display.
    Therefore a man who calls himself Catholic, is anti-Jєωιѕн, and knows the h0Ɩ0cαųst is a fraud is probably going to have a better than average understanding of Catholicism.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline Parasitic Eww

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #11 on: February 24, 2020, 05:49:15 PM »
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  • Therefore a man who calls himself Catholic, is anti-Jєωιѕн, and knows the h0Ɩ0cαųst is a fraud is probably going to have a better than average understanding of Catholicism.

    And he may be more likely to be wise as serpents but simple as doves.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 06:04:22 PM »
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  • By "Catholicity" do you mean membership in the Catholic religion? Your terms are unclear. In any case, someone can believe the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened and also be a good Catholic. Rejection of the h0Ɩ0cαųst is not a dogma of the Catholic faith.
    Another unclear term is "Jєωιѕн." This word might refer to the religion of the Old Testament (which is not evil), to the тαℓмυdic religion (which is evil) and to a specific racial group.

    Since racial hatred is a sin, if this is what a person means by claiming to be "anti-Jєωιѕн" then it is not something that makes him a good Catholic. On the other hand, it is an indication of a good Catholic if used in the sense of being opposed to the тαℓмυdic religion.

    Personally, I don't think that something so ambiguous and easily misunderstood makes a good indicator of anything.  I agree that we ought to be basing our ideas of who is Catholic on their acceptance of Church dogma.

    Offline rum

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 06:15:39 PM »
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  • This may be useful:

    "Christ was a Jєω of the kind that ceased to exist nineteen hundred years ago."

    Quote
    A REPLY TO LADY ABRAHAMS

    source: https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-june-1954/

    We have lately received a note from a reader in London, a Jєωιѕн lady, who, by the grace of God and the politics of empire, now finds herself a Catholic and a member of the lesser peerage. Lady Abrahams, as our correspondent signs herself, spoke out against The Point ’s “virulent anti-Semitism.” Her Ladyship bade us be mindful of “the charity of Jesus Christ,” Whom she called, in a rhetorical finale meant to wither us, “the greatest Jєω of all time!”

    Lady Abrahams’ evaluation of the adorable Word-made-flesh is, we cannot deny, arresting. We wonder just how such a judgment was arrived at, and we are tempted to envision her Ladyship lining up the contenders for her title of “greatest Jєω.” One by one, with much deliberation, Philo Judaeus, Rabbi Hillel, Benjamin Disraeli, and Bernard Baruch, all get eliminated — and Jesus of Nazareth wins the contest.

    In justice to our Catholic reader, in England, we must make it clear that by no means does The Point find Lady Abrahams guilty of originality in this matter; we do not accuse English Catholics of harboring a new Judaeo-heresiarch in their midst. Her Ladyship is but following the fashion, so tragically unprotested of late, by which converts from Judaism try to give the impression that their previous attendance at the ѕуηαgσgυє is an enhancement to their current Christianity, since, after all, Christ was a Jєω, too.

    Christ, indeed, was a Jєω. But anyone who is making an appeal to Christians to go all out for the Jєωs, would do well to leave Christ out of the argument. Christ was a Jєω Who claimed to be God, and thereby so outraged His fellow-Jєωs that they had Him put to death. Christ was the rightful King of the Jєωs, Who dared to defy the religious tyrannies of the Jєωιѕн Pharisees. Christ was the Divine Jєω Who got spat upon by His own people, and was labeled a “blasphemer” by the Jєωιѕн high priest.

    In introducing the fact that Christ was a Jєω, Lady Abrahams’ chief purpose was, clearly, to imply that Christ was the kind of Jєω she knew, a fact which would bear with it such religious consequences as: going to Sabbath services and reading, not from the Old Testament, but from the тαℓмυd; scoffing at the idea of a Jєωιѕн virgin being the Mother of God; believing that the Messias-to-come was not a Divine Person, but an era of Jєωιѕн prosperity.

    Without further illustration, we may conclude that, in the matter of belief, Christ was a Jєω of the kind that ceased to exist nineteen hundred years ago.

    The unanswered question in all of the foregoing is, of course, how about Lady Abrahams’ indisputably Jєωιѕн blood? Doesn’t that give her, through race and ancestry, a privileged relationship to Our Lord?

    The sacredness of Jєωιѕн blood throughout the Old Testament, and its jealous preservation, was for the one sublime purpose of keeping clear the human route by which the Word of God was to “become flesh and dwell amongst us.” That is why the Gospel writers take such care to present to us the genealogical blood-line of Our Lord — Saint Matthew recording it from Abraham down to Joseph, and Saint Luke retracing it from Bethlehem back to Eden. Once Good Friday has occurred, however, and Our Lord’s Precious Blood has been shed to its redemptive purpose, Jєωιѕн blood, as a Divine interest, is finished.

    All that was promised to the House of David, all that was awaited from the tribe of Juda, is gathered in the Precious Eucharistic Blood on our Catholic altars. It is not Lady Abrahams’ ancestral connection with the Temple of Jerusalem that counts now with God. It is her Ladyship’s proximity to an altar rail in London, where she, and the gentiles kneeling beside her, become, through Holy Communion, the true fulfillment of Our Blessed Lady’s Magnificat prophecy, “To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Good indicators of possible Catholicity?
    « Reply #14 on: February 24, 2020, 11:58:41 PM »
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  • "I'm anti-Jєωιѕн."
    "The h0Ɩ0cαųst didn't happen."

    Rather than being 'anti-Jєωιѕн' why not say 'I am Catholic. I am a true follower of Jesus Christ.' Or you could say 'I am a child of the Holy Virgin.'