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Author Topic: Godparents before Vatican 2  (Read 1012 times)

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Offline Sneakyticks

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Godparents before Vatican 2
« on: May 26, 2014, 04:01:04 PM »
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  • The Catholic Encyclopedia online doesnt have any article on godparents, and i dont have any access to a moral theology manual on the subject right now.

    My question is, could you be a godparent to more than 5 people at the same time before Vatican 2? What was the average number of people you were a godparent to?

    In the Novus Ordo being a godparent has been completely downgraded and perverted to just being something of a "good uncle/aunt" and to just being someone you go to get recommendation letters for jobs and things of that nature and the whole thing has nothing to do with the Faith or being vigilant for the spiritual welfare of your subject whatsoever of course, and you can be a "godparent" to a whole host of people at the same time which you don´t even see or really care for; I know several who are "godparents" to 30 plus people all at the same time.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Godparents before Vatican 2
    « Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 03:09:35 AM »
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  • I know of no such instruction but if a parent can raise "however many" children,  why couldn't a Godparent have "however many" Godchildren?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline poche

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    Godparents before Vatican 2
    « Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 11:27:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sneakyticks
    The Catholic Encyclopedia online doesnt have any article on godparents, and i dont have any access to a moral theology manual on the subject right now.

    My question is, could you be a godparent to more than 5 people at the same time before Vatican 2? What was the average number of people you were a godparent to?

    In the Novus Ordo being a godparent has been completely downgraded and perverted to just being something of a "good uncle/aunt" and to just being someone you go to get recommendation letters for jobs and things of that nature and the whole thing has nothing to do with the Faith or being vigilant for the spiritual welfare of your subject whatsoever of course, and you can be a "godparent" to a whole host of people at the same time which you don´t even see or really care for; I know several who are "godparents" to 30 plus people all at the same time.

    The average number of people you would normally be a godparent to would be one at a time. However in special circuмstances it might be concievable that there could be a godparent to more than one at a time. From the present code of Canon Law;

    SPONSORS

    Can.  872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.

    Can.  873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.

    Can.  874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

    1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

    2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

    3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

    4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

    5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

    §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2Y.HTM



    Offline poche

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    Godparents before Vatican 2
    « Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 01:24:12 AM »
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  • Here is from the code of 1917. It is not much different from the code of 1983 with the exceptions that in the 1983 the sponsor must be confirmed and the minimum age is 16. In the 1917 code the sponsor only has to be baptized and the minimum age is 14. It is concievable that one could be the sponsor of multiple candidates for baptism.

      CAPUT IV: De patrinis

    Can 762 §1. Ex vetustissimo Ecclesiae more nemo sollemniter baptizetur, nisi suum habeat, quatenus fieri possit, patrinum.
     §2. Etiam in baptismo privato patrinus, si facile haberi queat, adhibeatur, si non interfuerit, adhibeatur in supplendis baptismi caeremoniis, sed hoc in casu nullam contrahit spiritualem cognationem.

    Can 763 §1. cuм baptismus iteratur sub conditione, idem patrinus, quatenus fieri possit, adhibeatur, qui in priore baptismo forte adfuit; extra hunc casum in baptismo conditionato patrinus non est necessarius.
     §2. Iterato baptismo sub conditione, neque patrinus qui priori baptismo adfuit, neque qui posteriori, cognationem spiritualem contrahit, nisi idem patrinus in utroque baptismo adhibitus fuerit.

    Can 764. Patrinus unus tantum, licet diversi sexus a baptizando, vel ad summum unus et una adhibeantur.

    Can 765. Ut quis sit patrinus, oportet:
     1º Sit baptizatus, rationis usum assecutus et intentionem habeat id munus gerendi;
     2º Ad nullam pertineat haereticam aut schismaticam sectam, nec sententia condemnatoria vel declaratoria sit excommunicatus aut infamis infamia iuris aut exclusus ab actibus legitimis, nec sit clericus depositus vel degradatus;
     3º Nec sit pater vel mater vel coniux baptizandi;
     4º Ab ipso baptizando eiusve parentibus vel tutoribus aut, his deficientibus, a ministro sit designatus;
     5º Baptizandum in actu baptismi per se vel per procuratorem physice teneat aut tangat vel statim levet seu suscipiat de sacro fonte aut de manibus baptizantis.

    Can 766. Ut autem quis licite patrinus admittatur, oportet:
     1º Decimum quartum suae aetatis annum attigerit, nisi aliud iusta de causa ministro videatur;
     2º Non sit propter notorium delictum excommunicatus vel exclusus ab actibus legitimis vel infamis infamia iuris, quin tamen sententia intercesserit, nec sit interdictus aut alias publice criminosus vel infamis infamia facti;
     3º Fidei rudimenta noverit;
     4º In nulla religione sit novitius vel professus, nisi necessitas urgeat et expressa habeatur venia Superioris saltem localis;
     5º In sacris ordinibus non sit constitutus, nisi accedat expressa Ordinarii proprii licentia.

    Can 767. In dubio utrum quis valide vel licite admitti possit, necne, ad patrini munus, parochus, si tempus suppetat, consulat Ordinarium.

    Can 768. Ex baptismo spiritualem cognationem contrahunt tantum cuм baptizato baptizans et patrinus.

    Can 769. Patrinorum est, ex suscepto munere, spiritualem filium perpetuo sibi commendatum habere atque in iis quae ad christianae vitae institutionem spectant, curare diligenter ut ille talem in tota vita se praebeat, qualem futurum esse sollemni caeremonia spoponderunt.

    A rough translation is-

     CHAPTER 4 : The sponsors

    Canon 762 § 1. One of the oldest custom of the Church solemnly baptized no one , except to have its own , so far as is possible, the sponsors.
     § 2 . Even the private sponsor in baptism , if it is possible to be able to be held , is to be used , if it is not present , to be brought in to fill up the ceremonies of baptism , but in this case, no contracts a spiritual kinship.

    Canon 763 § 1. When baptism is repeated under a condition, the same as the sponsor , to the extent that it can be done would be given to who in the former , perhaps, was present at the baptism ; outside this particular case the sponsor in the baptism of the conditions imposed, it is not needed.
     § 2 . Repetition of baptism under a condition, nor the sponsor who was present at the baptism of the former , neither is he that the back-the spiritual relationship is contracted by , the sponsor unless the same has been used in both the baptism of man he was.

    Canon 764. Sponsor, but one, it is permitted to different sexes, from the person to be baptized , or at most one of each may be used.

    Canon 765. Such as what is the sponsor , it is necessary :
     1 º Let there be baptized, to have attained the use of reason and have the intention of acting in this capacity ;
     No it belongs to a heretical or schismatic sect of 2 o , and do not condemnatory or declaratory sentence or infamous infamy of law, or is excommunicated , excluded him from acts of legitimate, neither let there be a cleric he was deposed or degraded ;
     3 o be the father or the mother or not a spouse of being baptized;
     4 º The for baptism, or his parents, or guardians, or, in their absence, be appointed by the minister ;
     5 o were to be baptized in the act of baptism , by himself or through a proxy, either holds or touches the physically receive from the sacred font , or either at once , or lift it out of the hands of the baptizer .

    Canon 766. Lawfully a person who the sponsor But in order to be admitted , it must be :
     O 1 year of age, has reached the age of fourteen , unless there is a just cause to the officer to be made;
     2 º to let it not be excommunicated , nor excluded from the acts of the legitimate for a notorious crime or infamy, infamy of law, without, however, the opinion has occurred between , neither let there be forbidden during a criminal or other public or infamous in fact;
     3 rudiments of the Faith knows ;
     4 o In no religion but of another novice or professed member of the Superior , at least, has the express permission unless necessity is urgent and the local ;
     5 o For in the sacred orders is not appointed , unless the express permission of the Ordinary of one's own .

    Canon 767 . Doubt as to whether it can be validly or lawfully admitted , or not, to the function of a sponsor , the pastor , if time allows, is to consult the Ordinary .

    Canon 768. Baptist baptized by immersion spiritual relationship and contract only with the sponsor .

    Canon 769. Sponsor is, from the work they have undertaken , the spiritual, the son of perpetually have, and to a study of the institution of the Christian life in those matters which pertain to the , to take care of very carefully, that he should offer himself as such in his whole life , such as going to be the solemn ceremony went bail .

    http://www.jgray.org/codes/cic17lat.html