Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on May 03, 2021, 03:09:46 PM
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Yesterday at mass on my 1947 Lasance Missal, I went to the third Prayer which is for the pope and read it, but just can't believe that any Vatican II pope can fit this prayer. I asked God to convert them or remove them and replace them with a real pope. How can anyone read this prayer and think that the Vatican II popes are anything but counterfeit destroyers?
O God, the shepherd and ruler of all the faithful, look with favor upon Thy servant N., whom Thou hast been pleased to appoint pastor over Thy Church: grant him, we beseech Thee, that by word and example he may be of profit to those over whom he has been placed, and together with the flock committed to his care, attain unto life everlasting. Through our Lord
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Here is the Secret for the pope:
Be Appeased, we beseech Thee, O Lord, by the gifts we offer; and govern by Thy continuous protection Thy servant N., whom Thou hast been pleased to appoint chief shepherd over Thy Church. Through our Lord.
Here is the Postcommunion:
May the reception of this divine sacrament be our protection, O Lord; and may it ever save and defend Thy servant N., whom Thou hast been pleased to set up as pastor over Thy Church, and also the flock Thou hast entrusted to his care. Through our Lord
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Yesterday at mass on my 1947 Lasance Missal, I went to the third Prayer which is for the pope and read it, but just can't believe that any Vatican II pope can fit this prayer. I asked God to convert them or remove them. How can anyone read this prayer and think that the Vatican II popes are anything but counterfeit destroyers?
You don’t think Francis and the conciliar popes need such prayers?
I think they need them more than others!
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You don’t think Francis and the conciliar popes need such prayers? I think they need them more than others!
So do all our leaders, Bıdɛn, Peℓσѕι, Tɾυmρ, σbαmα, but that is irrelevant to the thread.
Look at the title of the thread, and the OP, do you think that God hast been pleased to appoint P6, JPII, B-16, and Francis pastors over you that by word and example they may be of profit to you over whom they has been placed by God?
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So do all our leaders, Bıdɛn, Peℓσѕι, Tɾυmρ, σbαmα, but that is irrelevant to the thread.
Look at the title of the thread, and the OP, do you think that God hast been pleased to appoint P6, JPII, B-16, and Francis pastors over you that by word and example they may be of profit to you over whom they has been placed by God?
Obviously, if God allowed them to be elected, then it pleased Him to do so.
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Well, we're either sedevacantists, and we don't say it (or rather, our priest does not say it), or we're not sedevacantists, and our priest does say it. Don't know how the formaliter-materialiter and similar folks handle the matter.
Incidentally, since my Lasance missal is at our other house, and I can't easily go there right now to get it --- my father is trying to get some rest --- I pulled up this website and got the 1937 Lasance:
https://www.ccwatershed.org/2013/03/19/1937-fr-lasance-missal/
(Is that a young Bishop Ratzinger?)
The missal itself is here:
http://archive.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/07/17/15-38-26_0.pdf
I can put this in the library, if need be, and Matthew, if this breaches any copyright laws, or runs afoul of "fair use", feel free to delete.
Long story short, I don't know whether Jorge Bergoglio is the Pope or not, but not being able to settle the doubt either way, I go with the assumption that he is. Not the least bit happy about that, but my feelings or my opinion mean nothing. I condemn no sedevacantist on the face of this earth. They could be right. In the end, we'll all know who was right and who was wrong.
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Obviously, if God allowed them to be elected, then it pleased Him to do so.
OK, so you believe without a doubt that God hast been pleased to appoint Francis pastor over you that by word and example he may be of profit to you over whom he has been placed by God.
Then why do you reject God's guidance, His choice, His will for you and what pleases Him? Why do you not follow your local bishop and Francis in anything that you do?
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Keep in mind the Prayers for the Pope are NOT for an individual Pope’s intentions but for the intentions of the Papacy. Fr. Hewko, whom I know you think highly of Last Tradhican, laid it out perfectly in a video a year or two back, if I can find it I will post it. I see your point however, but it’s not about the current occupant per se, as much as it’s about the Papacy, or so is my understanding anyway.
I’m imperfect so please keep that in mind.
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Keep in mind the Prayers for the Pope are NOT for an individual Pope’s intentions but for the intentions of the Papacy. Fr. Hewko, whom I know you think highly of Last Tradhican, laid it out perfectly in a video a year or two back, if I can find it I will post it. I see your point however, but it’s not about the current occupant per se, as much as it’s about the Papacy, or so is my understanding anyway.
I’m imperfect so please keep that in mind.
Then why is an individual pope's name inserted?
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Keep in mind the Prayers for the Pope are NOT for an individual Pope’s intentions but for the intentions of the Papacy. Fr. Hewko, whom I know you think highly of Last Tradhican, laid it out perfectly in a video a year or two back, if I can find it I will post it. I see your point however, but it’s not about the current occupant per se, as much as it’s about the Papacy, or so is my understanding anyway.
I’m imperfect so please keep that in mind.
So how is it handled if there is an actual sede vacante situation, or if an individual priest adheres to sede vacante in a time of crisis such as ours?
Don't anyone quote me on this, and I could very well be wrong, but in the case of sede vacante, I think the name of the previous pope is inserted until such time as a new pope is elected. Can anyone else confirm this? I don't have a source, but unless I dreamed it, I think I read that somewhere one time.
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So how is it handled if there is an actual sede vacante situation, or if an individual priest adheres to sede vacante in a time of crisis such as ours?
Don't anyone quote me on this, and I could very well be wrong, but in the case of sede vacante, I think the name of the previous pope is inserted until such time as a new pope is elected. Can anyone else confirm this? I don't have a source, but unless I dreamed it, I think I read that somewhere one time.
I don't think that is correct. The prior pope is dead typically. So it's my understanding that no name is included.
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Simple Man: I see it as, anyone who turns their back, and faces the people and call it a Mass, are heretics, blasphemers. That is why I reject New Order, for that is what it is, a new order. Therefore, anyone, priest or such who say this demonic ritual, can not be catholic, can not be validly nominated which is required of Holy Mother Church.
I find Cardinal Mannings book on the Temporal powers of the Pope very good reading. Cardinal Manning was an inspiration with Pope Leo XIII to see that Vatican I took place and infallibility was made doctrine. It was then that defining Pope, nomination is such were covered. So, in my opinion, we have no catholic, nominated since the Mass was destroyed. Again, all who do it, are mockers of God.
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OK, so you believe without a doubt that God hast been pleased to appoint Francis pastor over you that by word and example he may be of profit to you over whom he has been placed by God.
Then why do you reject God's guidance, His choice, His will for you and what pleases Him? Why do you not follow your local bishop and Francis in anything that you do?
It is good to remember that God not only allowed the heretic popes, but also all the heretical clergy and hierarchy, and we cannot forget to include all the heresy loving people who did not remain faithful, that is all those people who helped and continue to help spread their faithlessness and handed it down to their children and their children etc. re: Num 14:18.
God allows this crisis for the same reason He permits us to be tempted, namely, for the sake of our purification, for the sake of our proving to Almighty God that we are worthy of Him as he permits our enemies to rule the Church on earth for a little while.
But with all that, we know that the Church is not now nor will it ever be destroyed, not even heretical popes who are all hell bent on the Church's destruction can ever hope to destroy the Church.
In a nutshell, one of the reasons God permits heretical popes is to test our faith. God tests the faith of His people all the time so that we may prove to Him where our heart lies.
Consider Christ's miracle of the calming of the sea. The miracle where Christ, while asleep in the boat, made the sea become so rough that the Apostles, all veteran fishermen, all feared for their lives. Christ made the sea so rough that the Apostles thought the ship was about to break up and sink at any moment and they'd all drown. We are supposed to imagine this little ship to be the Church, tossed about during this crisis much more frightfully and furiously than it ever has been.
Just as God was in total control of the storm on the sea, God is fully in control of this crisis, everything is in the hands of God, absolutely everything - He has all power and is total control over this storm.
Keep the faith, there is hope.........
Snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen:
"...Furthermore that no matter how much tragedy with which history is strewn, Christ moves towards His glorious triumph. With His resurrection was the announcement that He would have his victory, when he emerged from the tomb, He proved that there was no force, no power greater than He. And he proved that if He was invincible, then that which He would establish is also invincible, namely His Church.
It really does not matter therefore that throughout history the Church suffer terrific blows, that it at times – and these times almost have always prevailed – that the Church suffer it’s terrible embarrassments, it’s setbacks.
Despite all this, despite all appearances and despite whatever losses, Christ is triumphing in the Church and He is proving His power, His invincibility and He is succeeding in doing what He came to the world to achieve and God the Father is fulfilling the purposes of His creation.
If it were not so He would never have created anything to begin with. If it could be, that Almighty God could set in motion anything out of which He could not draw whatever He wished, then He would never have done anything like that and He indeed would not be infinite in the first place.
We have it in our power to participate or we have it in our choice to be turned away, it is strictly within our choice and whatever grace is necessary is within our grasp..."
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In a nutshell, one of the reasons God permits heretical popes is to test our faith.
Except God in almost 2000 years, the total history of the Church, has never allowed a heretical pope, till the Vatican II popes. That is why I have I have serious doubts that "God hast been pleased to appoint Francis pastor over me that by word and example he may be of profit to me over whom he has been placed by God. I reject my local bishop and "Pope" Francis because I have serious doubts that they are "God's guidance, His choice, His will for me and what pleases Him".
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Except God in almost 2000 years, the total history of the Church, has never allowed a heretical pope, till the Vatican II popes. That is why I have I have serious doubts that "God hast been pleased to appoint Francis pastor over me that by word and example he may be of profit to me over whom he has been placed by God. I reject my local bishop and "Pope" Francis because I have serious doubts that they are "God's guidance, His choice, His will for me and what pleases Him".
But the multitude of people throughout the world, I am speaking of those within the Church pre-V2, were asking for it with the rise of immoral behavior, i.e. drugs, free love, rock and roll, divorce, and on and on, so God gave them what they really wanted, if not what they deserved. Don't you believe that the people themselves played a major roll in all of this - and still do?
I mean heck, just use the immoral dress at your trad chapel as one minuscule example, they want it both ways now, even today, same as when this mess first started, only back then there was a billion times more people involved.
God only puts up with so much for so long, then he leaves the people in their muck, leaves them with what they *really* want. Perhaps in your case the chapel will close or worse - but if they would start living like Catholics, perhaps God would send priests that are much stronger in the faith and straighten the place up - I believe it is the same difference as regards the conciliar popes and the Church.
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Except God in almost 2000 years, the total history of the Church, has never allowed a heretical pope, till the Vatican II popes. That is why I have I have serious doubts that "God hast been pleased to appoint Francis pastor over me that by word and example he may be of profit to me over whom he has been placed by God. I reject my local bishop and "Pope" Francis because I have serious doubts that they are "God's guidance, His choice, His will for me and what pleases Him".
God has revealed that before the "coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ" he would permit a "son of perdition" to sit in the Temple of God. Many have speculated that this will be someone sitting on the seat of Peter as pope. This revelation indicates that this will "please" God.
Stubborn is right about temptation and purification being in God's plan, even evil and heretical popes. The only other "son of perdition" in Scripture is Judas, a betrayer among the very apostles. The use of the term to apply to the final Anti-Christ suggests that he will be a pope, or a bishop arrogating the powers of the same.
It is also willed that the faithful oppose him, and flee the "abomination of desolation" - and all resisters here, R & R, Sedes - all who are Traditional Catholics - do so.
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God has revealed that before the "coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ" he would permit a "son of perdition" to sit in the Temple of God. Many have speculated that this will be someone sitting on the seat of Peter as pope. This revelation indicates that this will "please" God.
Stubborn is right about temptation and purification being in God's plan, even evil and heretical popes. The only other "son of perdition" in Scripture is Judas, a betrayer among the very apostles. The use of the term to apply to the final Anti-Christ suggests that he will be a pope, or a bishop arrogating the powers of the same.
It is also willed that the faithful oppose him, and flee the "abomination of desolation" - and all resisters here, R & R, Sedes - all who are Traditional Catholics - do so.
Good answer, can't argue with that.
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Obviously, if God allowed them to be elected, then it pleased Him to do so.
God permitted this atrocity as part of our chastisement.
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God permitted this atrocity as part of our chastisement.
Agreed. Our Lady warned us of this several times, most notably at La Salette and Fatima, even as far back as Quito. While I don't think we've had a legitimate pope since Pius XII, I do think it is just and true for God to allow men to fall into their sins and suffer the consequences. In this case, be deceived by a counterfeit church and hierarchy. Men began to run after worldliness and their passions once the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn hit France and the so-called "Enlightenment" swept the world. We were warned, we deserved it, and God gave it to us. Many so-called Catholics today have no interest in the truth, and for that are being swept up in this torrent of heresy and apostasy.
St. Paul predicted it when he spoke of the last days:
For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. - 2 Thess. 2:7-11